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Unprepared for Parenting (Ezzos, Pearls, Etc.) *Public* Support and information for those affected by the Ezzos, the Pearls, and other punitive and adversarial methods of child-rearing.
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Old 03-09-2015, 02:04 PM   #1
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Default NGJ New Addition to To Train Up a Child

I just read an excerpt of it sent in the mail. It is entirely of research supporting spanking. I was floored. I still get updates from NGJ and keep copies of all the books in my house because I like to know where they are taking so many of the family and friends I left behind. Most I never bother reading unless something new pops up on the headline. This was new and popped out at me! Until now, I have only heard "bible" teaching for spanking support in these spanking groups and never scientific research. I guess I am really discouraged, because of this. Anyone else aware?
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Old 03-09-2015, 03:00 PM   #2
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Default Re: NGJ New Addition to To Train Up a Child

I wonder what "research" they are quoting, because I know of no mainstream research that supports spanking.
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Old 03-09-2015, 04:11 PM   #3
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Default Re: NGJ New Addition to To Train Up a Child

Nothing they do surprises me anymore.

Here is a link to the article:
nogreaterjoy.org/articles/attack-traditional-child-training/
Hopefully, if you paste that into your browser, that will work.
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Old 03-09-2015, 05:04 PM   #4
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Default Re: NGJ New Addition to To Train Up a Child

When I get some time later, I will look up the excerpt from their book again because it was some rather prominent sounding quotes. I recognized a couple of the places who supposedly did the research.
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Old 03-09-2015, 05:16 PM   #5
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Default Re: NGJ New Addition to To Train Up a Child

The article is taken from the new chapter.
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Old 03-09-2015, 06:16 PM   #6
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Default NGJ New Addition to To Train Up a Child

Yes. They are printing the second half of the chapter in the next issues article. For my friends lingering "on the fence" this could be huge.

I just find it super depressing. I can see some excellent points mixed into the lies and it makes it all so enticing and confusing for people, especially for those just wanting to do the right thing for their kids.


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Old 03-09-2015, 06:35 PM   #7
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Default Re: NGJ New Addition to To Train Up a Child

Yuck. I couldn't finish it. He drives me crazy
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Old 03-09-2015, 06:58 PM   #8
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Default Re: NGJ New Addition to To Train Up a Child

The father of lies always mixes lies into truth.

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Old 03-09-2015, 07:00 PM   #9
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Default Re: NGJ New Addition to To Train Up a Child

Well, as they say, "statistics don't lie"...but the people who interpret them do.
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Old 03-09-2015, 08:46 PM   #10
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Default Re: NGJ New Addition to To Train Up a Child

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3PeasInAPod View Post
Yuck. I couldn't finish it. He drives me crazy
I really wanted to finish the article but I just can't.
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Old 03-10-2015, 07:48 AM   #11
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Default Re: NGJ New Addition to To Train Up a Child

Research supporting spanking? Sounds like a hoax to me. I wonder what the research methods have been. Surveys? Observational methods, with or without participation? Intervention techniques? Longnitudial studies? Statistics do not just pop up into being. Before any statistics can be produced, data has to be collected and analyzed by some decent methods. This seldom goes by unnoticed. If someone is really doing a large scale survey on the benefits of spanking, someone somewhere must have noticed that something like that is going on. Have you? Has any of you heard about such studies? And if nobody has seen or heard anything, it must be a very small scale survey. Small scale surveys do not have much scientific value. It is not very convincing if someone interviews five spanking families and states that 95% of them were either quite happy or very happy...
I would not be surprised at all if we would find out there has not been any research at all and that all "results" are fabricated. And I'm certain that nobody has asked the small children anything about the benefits of spanking. How was it? What was the appropriate "glue stick age", according to M&D Pearl? 10 month? I'm sure the point of view of such young children is not represented anyhow in any "research".

---------- Post added at 03:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:47 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlessedBlue View Post
Well, as they say, "statistics don't lie"...but the people who interpret them do.
Yep, and false statistics also do exist. If you feed false data to an Excel program you can make very nice curves, tables and diagrams that do nothing else but lie.

---------- Post added at 04:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:55 PM ----------

By the way...the article is quite hilarious some times. "I conducted an informal research...". Sounds convincing, does it? And how about this: "All presidents of the United States, including Obama, were spanked as children, as were nearly all senators, congressmen, and military commanders". I don't understand what's exactly the point. Are the presidents, the senators and congressmen such great role models? Or does M. Pearl try to say: "if you wan't your little boy to become the next president or a senator at least, spank him!" Or is it a message to the kids themselfes? "Johnny, would you like to become a President of the United States, just like Obama? Well, that's cool, Johnny my boy, and if you are properly spanked, who knows how far you can get."
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Old 03-10-2015, 07:50 AM   #12
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Default Re: NGJ New Addition to To Train Up a Child

Oh my. DD & I are currently reading The Fallacy Detective (a book designed to teach kids about logical arguments & fallacies). It's hard to even know where to begin, but I might just use the first section of this article for her to have a go at naming all the fallacies. (I haven't finished the article, but the first section includes red herrings, ad hominem, and genetic fallacies for sure.)

A number of the "studies" cited say things like, "Of all the successful, well-adjusted people in this study, 100% were spanked as children. Therefore, spanking produces successful, well-adjusted people." This is like saying, "Of all the people with cancer in this study, 100% use the internet. Therefore, the internet causes cancer." ...it's a lot of "correlation equals causation" type stuff.

It's a shame.
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Old 03-10-2015, 07:51 AM   #13
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Default Re: NGJ New Addition to To Train Up a Child

Well, the research they sighted if you scan the article was from teams studying kids to see whether or not spanking was detrimental. They supposedly found it wasn't and was actually the opposite. I want to find the research information. I'm sure it is available and published somewhere. Below, is one of the quotes.

"Dr. Diana Baumrind of the University of California, Berkeley, aided by teams of professional researchers, conducted what many consider to be the most extensive and methodologically thorough child development study ever done. They examined 164 families for over a decade, tracking their children from age four to fourteen. Baumrind found that “spanking can be helpful in certain contexts” and discovered “no evidence for unique detrimental effects of normative physical punishment.” The study also revealed that children who were never spanked tended to have behavioral problems, and were not more competent than their peers as other professionals had suggested."

I do think that an excellent point was made MariJo7 when you reminded everyone that the Pearl's recommend spanking starting very early. I have read their book and it is earlier than 10 months. More like 6 months or earlier because one section talks about before they can crawl giving little swats to teach them to not roll off their blanket.

I will say that the one thing I feel Pearl does have in his favor, because I have found a few rather non-religious people mention it in conversation is the fact that most studies are concerning delinquents and jailed individuals or those with obvious mental problems. I have heard comments like, "i was spanked, most of this research is done on kids with parents who beat their kids in the face or were alcoholic and drug dealers anyway.That was the source of their problems." I think that many, many people feel the same way. Pearl points that line of thinking out.
I am as against spanking as anyone, but I would appreciate some research which studies some "responsible spankers". I say that carefully because I know we don't believe spanking is responsible, but I also believe that though it may be wrong, my friend's mother who spanked and smacked her regularly in the face when angry was much worse than my friend whose mother always remained calm and was the model of broken hearted, loving mother when she spanked.

Maybe some of the more studied and veteran moms here could address the above. I was hoping that there is actually some research I'm unaware of. Mostly, I'm wondering in a conversation when someone brings this up, how do you address it? While it may be a wrong conclusion of spanking people come to, it is also a reasonable question. I usually have no answer when asked this, and I have been asked this, other than to sight my own personal conscience and beliefs about modeling in my life the character and actions I want for my children.
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Old 03-10-2015, 08:05 AM   #14
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Default Re: NGJ New Addition to To Train Up a Child

Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightCafe View Post
Oh my. DD & I are currently reading The Fallacy Detective (a book designed to teach kids about logical arguments & fallacies). It's hard to even know where to begin, but I might just use the first section of this article for her to have a go at naming all the fallacies. (I haven't finished the article, but the first section includes red herrings, ad hominem, and genetic fallacies for sure.)

A number of the "studies" cited say things like, "Of all the successful, well-adjusted people in this study, 100% were spanked as children. Therefore, spanking produces successful, well-adjusted people." This is like saying, "Of all the people with cancer in this study, 100% use the internet. Therefore, the internet causes cancer." ...it's a lot of "correlation equals causation" type stuff.

It's a shame.
I invite you and/or your daughter to submit your findings to my website for publication.

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Old 03-10-2015, 08:06 AM   #15
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Default Re: NGJ New Addition to To Train Up a Child

Quote:
Mostly, I'm wondering in a conversation when someone brings this up, how do you address it?
I think it's important to remind people that "most" adults in the U.S. were spanked as children. If you survey everyone in prison, most of them were spanked. If you survey everyone in Congress, most of them were spanked. We can't do a scientific study to "control" for the type of spanking and then research the effects of different types. We are reliant on subjective reports. Furthermore, a scientific study would need to control for all other factors in a person's life: family configuration, numbers of positive role models, socioeconomic situation, quality time with parents, positive to negative interaction ratios, education, other demographics, family values, personality... And many of those factors are also subjective. A person's success or lack of success in life cannot possible be boiled down to one factor.

P.S. The above quote is from ShepherdsWife. I couldn't get the quote feature to work.
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A variety of opinions and ideas are shared on GCM. Personal experiences, suggestions, and tips found here are in no way intended to substitute for medical counsel from a healthcare professional. Always use your own good judgement and seek professional advice when in doubt about a health concern.

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