Classical Conversations Concerns

[attachmom]

Does anyone have information on the administration of CC? Our oldest joined Challenge B this year and he really enjoys it, but recently red flags have been going up for me. The first is that the "official CC" facebook page seems to discourage many questions, bordering on censorship. My main concern is that I can't find anything about the upper level finances of CC (specifically, how much does the Bortins' family bring in each year?). One article mentioned that Leigh Bortins paid 1 million dollars in taxes in 2010. I realize all her income is not from CC, but I would guess that most of it is. If it's the case that she makes millions each year, while most of the tutors probably average less than minimum wage, then CC is NOT a business I want to support. Can anyone tell me where I can find more information? Thanks!

[melliethepooh]

I don't know how Challenge works. In Foundations and Essentials, the tuition goes to the director and tutors; the registration fee goes to corporate. Then there are all the books. I'm mildly annoyed that they're making so much $$ off it, but generally pleased with the program so we're using it.

[attachmom]

Here was the response given by my son's tutor: "From the tuition money I collect for CC a little under 2/3 stays with me, about 1/3 goes to CC corporate to cover practicums, training, website maintenance, magazines costs, etc., Of the 2/3 that stays with me, a small fraction of that goes to supplies, building rental and insurance costs."

His tutor clearly puts in so much time that I'm certain her hourly wage is very, very low. I think it's wrong for the local leaders to be doing their work as a ministry, while the upper leaders have visions of dollar signs. IMO, this is the problem with a business running a "Christian ministry"; there's just too much opportunity for the CEO to profit from the good intentions of others. I'm fine with capitalism, but there should be full disclosure.

[Katigre]

Originally Posted by attachmom

Here was the response given by my son's tutor: "From the tuition money I collect for CC a little under 2/3 stays with me, about 1/3 goes to CC corporate to cover practicums, training, website maintenance, magazines costs, etc., Of the 2/3 that stays with me, a small fraction of that goes to supplies, building rental and insurance costs."

His tutor clearly puts in so much time that I'm certain her hourly wage is very, very low. I think it's wrong for the local leaders to be doing their work as a ministry, while the upper leaders have visions of dollar signs. IMO, this is the problem with a business running a "Christian ministry"; there's just too much opportunity for the CEO to profit from the good intentions of others. I'm fine with capitalism, but there should be full disclosure.

Honestly, it sounds like you're taking on the outrage for something that's not your area of responsibility. This isn't good boundaries. Is the tutor frustrated by his/her pay? You make a lot of accusations in the second paragraph that may or may not be substantiated, and I would caution you to not jump to conclusions and invent outrage where none is warranted (or where the level of frustration is not equivalent to the 'offense' of being a for-profit corporation).

I say this as someone who works at a classical Christian coop. I am paid what I feel is a very fair wage. I am paid by class I teach and not per hour. Some teachers choose to put a LOT of time into preparing their classes which makes their 'hourly wage' lower than if they put in less time (this is true of teachers everywhere, not just at a coop). That is *their* choice to make in terms of how they budget their time. IMO unless this tutor is asking for you to help protest against his wage I would stay out of it.

Decide whether CC is a good fit for you and your family or not. But don't adopt outrage over teacher wages when you're not involved in that area .

[melliethepooh]

I'm a CC tutor and I'm very happy with what I make. The hourly rate is irrelevant to me.

[Katigre]

I found this by googling - is this accurate in terms of tuition and fees?

(https://www.classicalconversations.c...ng%20final.pdf)

If so I find CC very reasonably priced. My daughter's ballet class costs about the same per class and it's just one hour per week vs. the multiple hours of CC.

Classical Conversations® FOUNDATIONS Program
Tuition ($13.50/week per student for 24 weeks)............................. $ 325/year
Registration fee per student per year.............................................. .... $75*
Supply fee per student per year.............................................. ............. $50
Facility fee**............................................. ..........please see your Director
*Registration fee applies to the first student in each family. Additional students enrolling from the same

[Hopetobe]

I liked the thought of CC at first, but after reading a bunch of reviews, I decided it wasn't probably for us.


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[attachmom]

Originally Posted by Katigre

I found this by googling - is this accurate in terms of tuition and fees?

(https://www.classicalconversations.c...ng%20final.pdf)

If so I find CC very reasonably priced. My daughter's ballet class costs about the same per class and it's just one hour per week vs. the multiple hours of CC.

Classical Conversations® FOUNDATIONS Program
Tuition ($13.50/week per student for 24 weeks)............................. $ 325/year
Registration fee per student per year.............................................. .... $75*
Supply fee per student per year.............................................. ............. $50
Facility fee**............................................. ..........please see your Director
*Registration fee applies to the first student in each family. Additional students enrolling from the same

This is for the younger children and is for the morning "session." My son is in Challenge B; his tuition and fees comes to $1290/year.

---------- Post added at 12:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Hopetobe

I liked the thought of CC at first, but after reading a bunch of reviews, I decided it wasn't probably for us.


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Did any of the reviews you read address the concerns that I have? Thanks!

---------- Post added at 12:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Katigre

Honestly, it sounds like you're taking on the outrage for something that's not your area of responsibility. This isn't good boundaries. Is the tutor frustrated by his/her pay? You make a lot of accusations in the second paragraph that may or may not be substantiated, and I would caution you to not jump to conclusions and invent outrage where none is warranted (or where the level of frustration is not equivalent to the 'offense' of being a for-profit corporation).

I say this as someone who works at a classical Christian coop. I am paid what I feel is a very fair wage. I am paid by class I teach and not per hour. Some teachers choose to put a LOT of time into preparing their classes which makes their 'hourly wage' lower than if they put in less time (this is true of teachers everywhere, not just at a coop). That is *their* choice to make in terms of how they budget their time. IMO unless this tutor is asking for you to help protest against his wage I would stay out of it.

Decide whether CC is a good fit for you and your family or not. But don't adopt outrage over teacher wages when you're not involved in that area .

I'm really not looking for critique of my concerns; I'm looking for information and the problem is that I can't find it.

[Katigre]

Originally Posted by attachmom

This is for the younger children and is for the morning "session." My son is in Challenge B; his tuition and fees comes to $1290/year.

Ok, just to give a comparison, our classical coop is one day a week plus grading (36 weeks) and our tuition is $1,500/year for the age of your DS (plus additional registration and lab fees). We don't belong to a larger corporation though.

---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:10 PM ----------

Originally Posted by attachmom

I'm really not looking for critique of my concerns; I'm looking for information and the problem is that I can't find it.

Here is their corporate contact information: https://classical.secure.force.com/S...A1d0000000HJ4K

I'd start with calling or writing to them and see if they can address your concerns. It sounds like you disagree with the corporate structure of the organization though which is a difference in philosophy that may not be solvable?

[attachmom]

[/COLOR]
Here is their corporate contact information: https://classical.secure.force.com/S...A1d0000000HJ4K

I'd start with calling or writing to them and see if they can address your concerns. It sounds like you disagree with the corporate structure of the organization though which is a difference in philosophy that may not be solvable?[/QUOTE]

That's my next step (calling corporate). I was just hoping there was some information readily available that I was missing. I've talked to my son's tutor about it, and she has no idea how much the Bortins' family makes, but did ask me to let her know if I find out.

[ECingMama]

On the bottom of this link is a list of 27 reasons not to do cc.
http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/to...ns-is-neither/

I'm subbing for the financials.

[Soliloquy]

If they're calling their program a "Christian ministry" I would be curious, too.

I may find my shopping experience at Target to be satisfactory but I may write corporate or even boycott if I find out they buy from sweatshops or treat their employees in ways I find unacceptable.

---------- Post added at 06:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:00 PM ----------

It appears they offer profit sharing to managers. http://classicalconversations.com/pi...ne/000359.html

[melliethepooh]

Originally Posted by Katigre

I found this by googling - is this accurate in terms of tuition and fees?

(https://www.classicalconversations.c...ng%20final.pdf)

If so I find CC very reasonably priced. My daughter's ballet class costs about the same per class and it's just one hour per week vs. the multiple hours of CC.

Classical Conversations® FOUNDATIONS Program
Tuition ($13.50/week per student for 24 weeks)............................. $ 325/year
Registration fee per student per year.............................................. .... $75*
Supply fee per student per year.............................................. ............. $50
Facility fee**............................................. ..........please see your Director
*Registration fee applies to the first student in each family. Additional students enrolling from the same

Tuition is $335 next year.

I liked the 27 reasons not to CC I hear them all. It's still working very well for us.

[Hopetobe]

Originally Posted by attachmom

[/COLOR]

Did any of the reviews you read address the concerns that I have? Thanks![COLOR="Silver"]

No reviews on higher level financials. It was more things like:

- Tutor quality was variable so you would be paying the same amount for "good tutors" as not-so-great tutors, and you were stuck with the tutor your child received, regardless of the tutor being the right fit for the class/student or not, education levels, and if they came prepared enough or not. So quite a few reviews experienced and mentioned the downsides of that.

- One tutor described her experience. She said the small amount of training didn't prepare them enough for actually tutoring, but it was more of a time to go over policies. If I recall correctly, she also said that she felt uncomfortable with a response from one of the trainers on the hierarchy/priority - that the parents were considered so low, and that the head of CC was right after God. There was no room for policy discussion, etc.

There seems to be a couple other things I don't remember now.



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[teamommy]

It's a business. Can you ask your director? Maybe there are tax forms online under whatever state the corporation files in.

I can understand the concerns, but tutors know what they will be paid and what is required when they sign up, and they agree. And I believe they are not required to have any specialized knowledge of subjects or teaching experience, even at the high school level. If you are concerned about the cost for what you get, you can Latin instruction, for example, from a teacher who knows the language, for much less than CC, and still be able to hire a math tutor or sign up for a math class given by a teacher with a math degree. I am sure the Cc tutors work very hard, but since they aren't required to be teachers but rather facilitators, I guess I wouldn't expect them to be highly paid.