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Unprepared for Parenting (Ezzos, Pearls, Etc.) *Public* Support and information for those affected by the Ezzos, the Pearls, and other punitive and adversarial methods of child-rearing.
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23. No posts harshly dissecting parenting moments of others since we desire to humbly cultivate a heart attitude of grace and not judgment towards other mamas. We all struggle at times as parents and have much to learn, and GCM's focus is to provide tools and information for each of us to parent more effectively. Posts voicing some frustration regarding choices made by others can be okay, but it needs to be within the overall context of seeking understanding or ideas for better responses in the future.

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Old 07-22-2010, 11:05 PM   #1
CarissaJoy
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Default Is Spanking Biblical?

I just posted an answer to this question on my blog. I'd love to get your feedback!

Here is the link to it: http://richlyforgiven.blogspot.com/
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:48 AM   #2
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Default Re: Is Spanking Biblical?

I do believe the whole OT still applies and based on studying it Hebraically I do not believe that Solomon was at all talking about spanking I'm sure the way you presented it will appeal to those who doctrinally hold to this approach to the OT
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:38 AM   #3
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Default Re: Is Spanking Biblical?

Thank you, Crystal, for reading this long blog post. I appreciate your comment. It makes me think...I don't want to sound like I think the OT is not meaningful and important to read.

I think that the rod could also be seen as a symbol for authority in Proverbs.

I am curious, though, in what way does the OT apply to the believer? I am sure that you don't mean we should sacrifice animals or that we should be careful not to mix different types of cloth when we dress or that we should stone rebellious sons. There is no sarcasm here, I am honestly curious as to what you mean when you see the OT applies? I very much respect your opinion, even if we do not fully agree doctrinally...
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:39 AM   #4
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Default Re: Is Spanking Biblical?

That was articulately and well put together! Bravo for you CarissaJoy! I hope a lot of parents read it and understand!

PS---your blog is really well done! I enjoyed reading several of your back posts. Mommas--check her out!

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Old 07-23-2010, 09:50 AM   #5
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Default Re: Is Spanking Biblical?

Good job Carissa!

I know it's not your original topic, but I love the post about the match. You described me to a T!
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:00 AM   #6
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Default Re: Is Spanking Biblical?

Quote:
I am curious, though, in what way does the OT apply to the believer? I am sure that you don't mean we should sacrifice animals or that we should be careful not to mix different types of cloth when we dress or that we should stone rebellious sons. There is no sarcasm here, I am honestly curious as to what you mean when you see the OT applies? I very much respect your opinion, even if we do not fully agree doctrinally...
No sarcasm heard

What is understood to be the "curse of the Law" is the whole sacrificial system as it pertains to guilt and sin offerings and they were all a picture of Jesus and he accomplished "atonement" (which was their temporary purpose) at the cross That has been done away with

There were two other trips up Mt Sinai that Moses made

Because we do not live in Israel and are not governed by the government God established for Israel we cannot expect to have the trials and the penalties for things the way He established them for those who are living in the Land of Israel. And when you study how the Israelites understood them and the way Moses implemented them they are really not harsh--plus the way they are interpreted in the Hebrew Scriptures versus the generic modern OT translations they read much different and the Hebrew doesn't read as harsh What was required to actually receive a death penalty from the court of 70 elders conducting the trial was INTENSE! and very rarely occurred

BUT if we stop thinking about the penalties--which weren't the point of what was being established at all!--we find that the OT Law teaches the people of God how to live in community with one another. It's really quite full of how to be a holy people. I'm posting a study in pieces about what we, as believers, can learn and live by from the Torah. I've got the first two articles posted so I'll share them with you

This is about the 10 Commandments and the details around their giving.
http://hearunderstandobey.com/moses-...-mt-sinai.html

This is the article on the Civil Law http://hearunderstandobey.com/moses-...civil-law.html

They are long but I'd love your thoughts after you read them

Whether any of us ultimately agree with one another or not, the meaning of the verses in question are distorted and being used to "prove" and "justify" a very modern practice. A literal reading would involve "beating an adolescent with a large stick" and I don't hear anyone arguing for that Even the ancient rabbis who argue for a more literal reading in their writings about Scripture do not advocate that--they were caught in a bind with the fact that it was illegal to strike a Jewish man over bar mitzvah age without authority from a court of law.
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:40 AM   #7
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Default Re: Is Spanking Biblical?

I believe that we are living under the New Covenant not the Old Covenant. New Covenant references to discipline never refer to spanking a small child. Old Covenant refererences to the rod -- well, that's the whole debate, right?

I was raised to think that rod = spanking. But after reading of God "beating them with the rod of his mouth" it became apparent to me that using the word *rod* in reference to hitting people at least *can* be metaphorical.

I'm still working throgh renewing my mind in the way of thinking of rod equaling hitting. It helps me to see the lack of consistency in the teaching. Things like "You can't hit with your hand, you must use a rod" and then giving a description of the *rod* that doesn't fit the Hebrew word, helps me realize that it's not really a teaching founded in Scripture. I mean, no loving parent would go get a big tree branch and hit their 3 month old. But to take what is taught (the word for child can mean infant....) along with the actual meaning of the word shebet, isn't that what we would have?
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Old 07-23-2010, 01:13 PM   #8
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Default Re: Is Spanking Biblical?

Quote:
It helps me to see the lack of consistency in the teaching.
It is very frustrating to have the conversation with someone who appears to presume that the reason you have a different opinion than them is because they are adhering to a higher, more faithful view of Scripture and are (according to them) taking it "literally," while you (according to their view) are merely twisting scripture or avoiding its "clear" teachings to suit your own pre-existing opinions.

One would sure like to ask the other person to slow down and examine things more carefully, but in ordinary conversation the assumptions that clutter this issue pile up so quickly! It's very frustrating.
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:16 PM   #9
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Default Re: Is Spanking Biblical?

katiekind--it took a lot of courage for me to blog about spanking...but I am just SO tired of people using a few verses to build a doctrine! Spanking is so ingrained in our culture, especially our "Christian" culture, that as soon as you say that you don't spank, people think you are not a "literalist," or that you are not "conservative" like them! The Bible so clearly does not support spanking! My husband and I were shocked when we went straight to the Bible for our answer to the question I posted on--spanking is not in the Bible, it just isn't. It is actually a stretch to say that the Bible prescribes it!! I had been taught for my entire life that it was the Biblical way to raise children, and when I started finding out that the Bible did not advocate spanking, it literally made me sick to my stomach! I want to speak out so as to free Christians to not use this tool.

---------- Post added at 09:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove View Post
This is about the 10 Commandments and the details around their giving.
http://hearunderstandobey.com/moses-...-mt-sinai.html

This is the article on the Civil Law http://hearunderstandobey.com/moses-...civil-law.html

They are long but I'd love your thoughts after you read them
Crystal, thanks for sharing your posts. SO very interesting. I love your insight into Hebrew culture/thought in regards to the law. I love discussions about the Bible because it forces me to go to God's word, to evaluate what I believe.

I agree that the 10 Commandments lets us know right from wrong in God's eyes. What do you make of Romans 3:19-20 "Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin," and Romans 4:14-15 "For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation"? From what I understand, the law is our "tutor" to lead us to Christ because we see that we cannot keep the law, and thus be justified by our works; we see that we need a Savior. I have always thought of Jesus' actions/words as using the law to show people (especially the uptight religious ones) that they could not get to heaven by being good/following the law.


Also, as regards to the believer, I agree that the 10 Commandments helps us to know what someone living in relationship with God should act like...except that I think God calls us to behavior/thoughts/actions that are even more stellar than those required by the law because we can live by the Spirit's power, and because we have been washed clean in our new natures, and are able to be holy. I think of the Romans 6 reason for why we should not sin: because we have died to sin (vs 2), having been united with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection, and raised to newness of life with God. Now, we are free to present our members to God as "slaves" to righteousness.



Another thought is that the law seems to work on our outward actions, but Jesus calls believers to be pure inwardly as well (accomplished through Christ). I always think of Matthew 5:21--, as Jesus showing that we are called to inward purity, not just outward good deeds, and this was made possible for us by His atonement on the cross; therefore, we Christians are able to live more purely than the Jews were able to under the law...


Thank you so much for your writings! I find them interesting and stimulating!! I am also happy that we agree on the most important single truth in the Bible--the way to enter heaven is through Christ and His work alone! Would love to continue this conversation...
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:57 PM   #10
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Default Re: Is Spanking Biblical?

I your blog. I keep reading older posts even though I really, really should be in bed.
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Old 07-24-2010, 02:05 AM   #11
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Default Re: Is Spanking Biblical?

You debunk the idea that Proverbs requires a Christian parent to spank and you do it very well.

My question is - what about the rest of the question? Those verses don't require us to do it, but is spanking permissible in your estimation?

Or do I have to wait and read on to find out?
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Old 07-24-2010, 03:08 AM   #12
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Default Re: Is Spanking Biblical?

I'll have to come back to answer the questions about the Law because there are answers I do want to say that the ancient rabbi's completely understood that it was a spirit and change from the inside out thing

Quote:
the word for child can mean infant....
The word na'ar is ONLY used for two young children--Moses and Samuel. This is because the word speaks to being "ripped from mother's arms" and speaks of when the boy moves completely into the men's camp around age 13. Moses was "ripped from mother's arms" at 3 months and Samuel when he was weaned (around 5 at that time)
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Old 07-24-2010, 07:06 AM   #13
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Default Re: Is Spanking Biblical?

Nanookmama--I am going to debunk spanking...just one step at a time. I have a few readers who are pro-spanking, so I am trying to tread carefully and remain gracious.
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Old 07-24-2010, 07:38 AM   #14
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Default Re: Is Spanking Biblical?



subbing to read later...
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Old 07-24-2010, 11:31 AM   #15
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Default Re: Is Spanking Biblical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove View Post

The word na'ar is ONLY used for two young children--Moses and Samuel. This is because the word speaks to being "ripped from mother's arms" and speaks of when the boy moves completely into the men's camp around age 13. Moses was "ripped from mother's arms" at 3 months and Samuel when he was weaned (around 5 at that time)
This is a concept I'm really trying to get my mind around. The concept I grew up with is that spanking should be done before age 5 and if done properly then, it won't be necessary later. The idea that, even if the rod verses were to imply corporal punishment, it still is referring to teenage boys, not little ones, is worth a lot of thought!
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