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Unprepared for Parenting (Ezzos, Pearls, Etc.) *Public* Support and information for those affected by the Ezzos, the Pearls, and other punitive and adversarial methods of child-rearing.
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Old 03-20-2010, 04:16 PM   #16
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

Thanks for the insight... I'm not a big fan of WOS (probably because of my friends who are, most also follow pearls and I lost a friend recently when she decided my being abused by my husband last year was because I wasn't respecting him enough and submitting the way I "should" which I have definite issues... my husband should not hit me and that is not something I will ever be ok with). I see my cousin as a very gentle man, though I know the church he is a missionary/leadership roll in is fairly fundamentalist. His wife is also a missionary, though, and I guess I can't picture her giving over every decision to him? Since this is their first son and the baby is only tiny still, I want to help steer them towards GBD the best I can while being clear about my concerns for the sources they've found especially since he mentioned he's not 100% on board with all their things.
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Old 03-20-2010, 04:22 PM   #17
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

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Originally Posted by allisonintx View Post
Once upon a time, I was a member of a QF (at the time, the only QF) email loop that was associated with the Above Rubies ladies.

I was kicked off that list because I dared to question what a woman's doctor wanted her to do with regard to a pregnancy issue. The moderators said that I was encouraging her to defy his authority

In certain settings it is very difficult to stand up and speak truth but I am so thankful for the ones like you who are courageous enough to do so.
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Old 03-20-2010, 07:23 PM   #18
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by allisonintx View Post
Once upon a time, I was a member of a QF (at the time, the only QF) email loop that was associated with the Above Rubies ladies.

I was kicked off that list because I dared to question what a woman's doctor wanted her to do with regard to a pregnancy issue. The moderators said that I was encouraging her to defy his authority
Hmmmmm, I can't figure this one out .

First of all, because Nancy ALL ways encourages women to question their doctors and not just take their opinion as face value. Secondly, they are very much appreciative of and supportive of midwives, homebirths, UC, VBAC's, etc., Nancy's oldest dd, who has had 10 unassisted childbirths, actually gave birth to her first two children in a tent in the middle of a Minnesota winter , I don't think that was doctor approved .

AND finally, as a former moderator on one of her e-groups, having someone banned was RARELY done. I only remember two in 5 years and one was a man, and the other was a dear mother who was extremely arguementative. Although, we never expected everyone to agree and allowed disagreement, the opening page of the yahoo group does say that it is NOT a place to debate, but to encourage one another. Some people felt like it was a safe place to share, and this woman didn't seem to agree with any of the basics of Above Rubies , and I know that she wasn't you, this lady was from Oregon .

So based on those two experiential "knowns", I'm just not sure what happened there, it just seems like so "odd" that you would be banned for something like questioning a doctor's authority .
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Old 03-21-2010, 07:41 AM   #19
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

This happened in 1997. The tone of the group was VERY heavily WOS, and the moderators were not women.

All the women talked about Above Rubies all the time on the group, but perhaps it wasn't actually an AR group Internet communities were young, then.

About a year after my expulsion from that group, dozens of splinter groups emerged from the original QF list, whose tone was much more tolerable.
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Old 03-21-2010, 08:11 AM   #20
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

I also personally know one of the dds and have met and spent time with dil & another dd.I have to agree pretty much with Adelynns take on things.I might also add that none of these women that I mentioned attend the same church as their parents.The parents are totally ok with that and the times I have spent with these women they were very sweet & loving & graceful & non-religious and flexible with their kids,very crunchy as has been mentioned,I didnt see any punitive kind of discipline happening at all. I do also think that you have to spit and chew - most of us are not going to find other people who are 100% across the board with us on every single issue.Some of the Campbells views may just be more old school and not what their kids agree with or practice or advocate.Like any of us here,they have their own ways and household dynamics set up and I imagine have to work with their parents as some of us do about what those dynamics look like.They truly love,love,love children and are open to children as Gods blessings but also are very much into rescuing children.One of the daughters adopted some older kids from a war torn place in Africa and then they have adopted more because the kids were literally crying for some of their friends left behind every day.
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Old 03-21-2010, 09:25 AM   #21
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

I detest Above Rubies. I loathe the messages of Nancy Campbell at her conferences which are FAR different than her magazine. I think she is a freaky radical and those opinions come out at her conferences, I've been to a few, and that she is shrewd enough to know that she can't publish those things on her website or magazine because she'll come under more scrutney. I believe she is a gothardite, despite her saying that she isn't, and she has strong opinions on adoption, histeroctomies, and wife only submission to the point that it can become dangerous. The websites position on spanking is vile. I am NOT against wife only submission to the level of some mamas here, but she takes it to the extreme.

Here are some of my observations from another thread on Above Rubies.

Quote:
They view adoption in a horrific way. Always children who are "lesser than" biological children. I've heard many people in the magazine and at conferences talk about their "adopted' children and their biological children and always being very careful to mark the difference between the two.

Nancy Campbell who started and runs it told a very wonderful Godly friend of mine that she was not able to enjoy the kingdom of God or be a gentle loving mother because she had a hysterectomy when she had uterine cancer. She went on to say that beating a child with a wooden spoon was the most loving thing one could do to a child.

They are BIG BIG Pearl and Gothard people.

Nancy Campbell believes and has said several times that infertility is a punishment from God for sin in the hearts of a women.

Nancy Campbell believes that NOT spanking a child is a sin.

Above Rubies does promote extended breastfeeding and natural normal birth. But they also are incredibly punitive in their parenting views, very pro spanking, pro spanking with instruments etc... Honestly I think that a fully sedated c-section and full formula feeding with very gentle parenting is far more valuable than a natural birth and extending breastfeeding with a life of spankings, beatings, and presenting a punitive view of God. I believe breastfeeding and natural birth are best. However I would trade those in an instant for a life of gentle parenting.
Quote:
There is so much more yuckiness at their conferences. I feel like the magazine is the fairly innocent gateway drug. When you start to get involved in the CDs and the conferences it is absolutely horrifying.
Quote:
Lots of talk of the importance to God of spanking. Lots of negativity about adoption Lots of wife only submission. Lots of nastiness regarding women who are infertile or who have had ovaries or uteruses removed. I have heard in person Nancy Campbell refer to infertility as a punishment from God. As adopted children needing to be cleansed and delivered from the generational sins of their birthfamilies, of women submitting to their husbands even if said husband is leading wife into sin because Sarah let Abraham lead her into what he knew was sin.

It was horrific
Quote:
Yes they encourage adoption and really focus on how much adopted children are loved, almost as much as biological children They see adoption as a salvation ministry first and foremost. Nancy always refers to her adopted children as her adopted children, they are never just her children. She speaks of her children and her adopted children, she always clarifies. She has spoken in the two conferences I've been to about how her adopted children come with generational sin that has to be beaten out of them, and how her biological children don't have these generational sins since they come from Godly families who have broken these curses and sins

Adoption is ONLY a salvation ministry, not a way to build a family. Infertile women are less than fertile women, and Hannah was cursed until she repented of her sin in the temple and poured her heart out to God.


---------- Post added at 04:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------

I also wanted to add that it is critical for followers of gothard and Pearl to never discipline their children in front of others outside of the family. Most will appear very very gentle to the outsider, even those who are staying with them for a period, because they are instructed that discipline should only be done in the presence of family never ever where outsiders can see it. Some Gothard movements even instruct their followers to publicly distance themselves from Gothard because unless you are enlightened by God you won't "understand" There is a reason that the Duggars appear to be a very gentle family on television, but I guarantee you they spank.
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Old 03-21-2010, 10:09 AM   #22
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

Erin expressed pretty much all of my reservations about AR. I looked into them a couple years back on the recommendation of two women I met at Library Story hour.

I weeded through their QF ideas, their WOF submission ideas, and their pro-spanking ideas, but eventually came full stop when article after article made it clear about their stance on adoption. I'll just never be able to wrap my brain around a Christian having issues with adoption and infertility. It just doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 03-21-2010, 10:51 AM   #23
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by B Hope View Post
Erin expressed pretty much all of my reservations about AR. I looked into them a couple years back on the recommendation of two women I met at Library Story hour.

I weeded through their QF ideas, their WOF submission ideas, and their pro-spanking ideas, but eventually came full stop when article after article made it clear about their stance on adoption. I'll just never be able to wrap my brain around a Christian having issues with adoption and infertility. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Combined with the fact that they have adopted children and subjected them to their abusive mindset about adoption make me want to vomit. Those poor children, it just makes me sick
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Old 03-21-2010, 02:32 PM   #24
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

I have found AR very confusing, because while they are so empowering in some ways, they also include a lot of stories from families that for instance, follow the Pearls. I recall one article which the family was saying "Some people think we are too hardcore, but look at our children, they are so obedient. We believe in first time obedience" etc. It often contradicts. I suppose from what Adelynne said, that that is just them trying to let ppl be free to have their own opinions.

I think the dangerous thing is that they make statements which can be viewed differently depending on the lense that you are looking through. Eg. One massive header said "SUBMIT TO YOUR HUSBAND IN EVERYTHING!!!" (the Greek says "every high thing")

They also seem to have a "chain of command" mindset or maybe this is just from some of the articles they accept.

Nancy did one article on 'discipline', in which she was clearly referring to spanking. She said that her daughter Evangeline has been "disciplining" her children since they were quite young, (she has 10 kids) and she can take them to the shops with ease. She said they were very good kids. Apparently the spanking resulted in "the peacable fruit of righteousness". I had to wonder if Serene is less punitive or something, I wondered why Nancy didn't mention her kids were good too?

Yeah so overall, I get very confused by AR because they seem so perfect, I have to wonder if I am doing things wrong?

Thankyou Adelynne, your response brings me much more clarity

---------- Post added at 09:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:29 PM ----------

What are their views on adoption? They seem very pro adoption and inclusive of their adopted kids???
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Old 03-21-2010, 04:04 PM   #25
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

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Originally Posted by boobymummy View Post
What are their views on adoption? They seem very pro adoption and inclusive of their adopted kids???
The following is the quote that I quoted in the above post from another post (clear as mud )

Quote:
Yes they encourage adoption and really focus on how much adopted children are loved, almost as much as biological children They see adoption as a salvation ministry first and foremost. Nancy always refers to her adopted children as her adopted children, they are never just her children. She speaks of her children and her adopted children, she always clarifies. She has spoken in the two conferences I've been to about how her adopted children come with generational sin that has to be beaten out of them, and how her biological children don't have these generational sins since they come from Godly families who have broken these curses and sins

Adoption is ONLY a salvation ministry, not a way to build a family. Infertile women are less than fertile women, and Hannah was cursed until she repented of her sin in the temple and poured her heart out to God.
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Old 03-21-2010, 04:26 PM   #26
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

They flip my internal alarms on in a big way. I'm sure their following is filled with beautiful, loving, committed mothers, but I can't get near their theology and philosophies without that alarm screaming inside.
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Old 03-21-2010, 04:49 PM   #27
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

I am not defending the Campbells or any teachings that are sensitive to others here but this story is on their page - and is one that I heard the night we went to a info meeting about adoption at their church in TN.It just doesnt go along with some of the doctrine that was quoted earlier or the beliefs I have seen in the daughters that I know.So,in all fairness here is the link to the story that touched me so.Why would they even have this on their page if they didnt believe someone should adopt to become that childs mom & dad and to bring that child into a family,not just for doctrinal purposes? Im not trying to get into a debate and that was the only time I was ever at their church.The church the dds go to is not into Pearls or anything like that at all.Anyway,here is the link: http://www.aboverubies.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=809:a doptions-orphans-tuckers-story&catid=24&Itemid=55

Last edited by flowermama; 03-22-2010 at 11:38 AM. Reason: edited to break link
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Old 03-21-2010, 04:59 PM   #28
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

That is a drama filled rescue story, and it makes me feel .
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Old 03-21-2010, 05:03 PM   #29
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamacat View Post
I am not defending the Campbells or any teachings that are sensitive to others here but this story is on their page - and is one that I heard the night we went to a info meeting about adoption at their church in TN.It just doesnt go along with some of the doctrine that was quoted earlier or the beliefs I have seen in the daughters that I know.So,in all fairness here is the link to the story that touched me so.Why would they even have this on their page if they didnt believe someone should adopt to become that childs mom & dad and to bring that child into a family,not just for doctrinal purposes? Im not trying to get into a debate and that was the only time I was ever at their church.The church the dds go to is not into Pearls or anything like that at all.Anyway,here is the link: http://www.aboverubies.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=809:a doptions-orphans-tuckers-story&catid=24&Itemid=55
This doesn't speak to the least about their views of adoption, but rather that we "should" adopt. It doesn't speak to the doctrine at all IMO. I have heard Nancy Campbell tell me to my face that my infertility is a result of my sin. I have heard her with my ears talk about the sins of birth families being passed down into the children they have and place. I have heard her, and read over and over, about her "adopted" children vs. her bio children, and the same thing with her grandchildren.

Encouraging adoption does not mean that they don't have warped views of adoption. I know plenty of people who have incredibly sick warped ugly nasty views of adoption who adopt children.

---------- Post added at 12:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbit View Post
That is a drama filled rescue story, and it makes me feel .


Adoption should never, EVER, be a rescue mission, even if children are sometimes rescued.

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Old 03-21-2010, 06:41 PM   #30
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

It was drama filled, it did rescue a boy. But Jesus placed the love for that child as her son in her heart even before she knew him. She was open and completely embraced a 2 children with limbs missing as her own. I understand that you may feel upset by things such as Nancy's insensitivity calling infertility a result of sin. I have felt the same way when people have said similar about me suffering hyperemesis in pregnancy. But that story was a miracle!
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