So what do we do about Hebrews 12:6?

MaiMama · 01-12-2009, 08:51 PM

"because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."

I thought y'all have said on here often that God doesn't punish his children. But this verse says he does.

I believe in Gentle Parenting, but I know part of the argument is that God doesn't treat his kids that way, and this verse says he does. Now what?

Teribear · 01-12-2009, 08:53 PM

It is a poor translation. Crystal has a post on it somewhere I think. I'll see if I can find it.

brandi · 01-12-2009, 09:02 PM

erinee · 01-12-2009, 09:38 PM

I wonder, too. I can't find a translation at blb.org that doesn't make this seem punitive. My own verision (NASB) says scourge. Mine is the Key Word Study BIble, which Crystal recommended to me, and the Greek word is mastigoo, which means "to scourge." Strong's (which I know some here don't like) adds that it's a "metaphor of God as a father chastising and training men as children by afflictions."

I'm certainly NOT arguing in favor of punitive parenting, and even if this verse really *is* saying that God sometimes punishes his children, it wouldn't change my mind about spanking -- after all, I'm not God. I know Crystal will have an explanation, but it's just very confusing to me how I'm supposed to read the Bible and know what the author was *really* saying when even the original text implies physical punishment. I want to be able to read and study it on my own. That's why I got the study Bible with the Hebrew & Greek dictionaries, but if even those are faulty, I don't know what to do.

And I know Paul was using Greek words to express Hebraic ideas, so it was rather limited, but right before the use of mastigoo he uses the word paideutes, which means instruction and nurture, the way we at GCM understand discipline. If Paul didn't mean that God also punishes us in addition to disciplining, why use a different verb?

Sorry, just a moment of frustration.

happyhousewife · 01-12-2009, 09:42 PM

Teribear · 01-12-2009, 09:42 PM

Actually IIRC the translation was in which son...and was about the ONE perfect son...Jesus...who took our punishment on the cross. Hopefully Crystal will see this and can point us in the right direction because I can't find what I'm looking for right now.

hopefromgrace · 01-12-2009, 09:43 PM

erinee · 01-12-2009, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teribear

Actually IIRC the translation was in which son...and was about the ONE perfect son...Jesus...who took our punishment on the cross. Hopefully Crystal will see this and can point us in the right direction because I can't find what I'm looking for right now.

Ahhh, now that makes a LOT of sense!

light of mine · 01-12-2009, 09:59 PM

BHope · 01-12-2009, 10:04 PM

I started a post about this a year or two ago.

I'm going to dig it up and see if helps at all.

A few links to read:
http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...topic=201463.0

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...?topic=28507.0

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...topic=101253.0

And ETA: I can't find the one where I actually participated in the discussion.

Go figure. I'm too tired, I'll find it later.

Charlie U · 01-12-2009, 10:06 PM

Here's a link from not too long ago. http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...topic=201463.0

saturnfire16 · 01-12-2009, 10:13 PM

In my Bible, this verse is in quotes starting in verse 5. "And you have forgotten the appeal which speaks to you as sons, "My son, do not despise the disciplinge of God, nor faint when you are reproved by Him, for whom God loves, He disciplines, and flogs every son whom He receives."

The foot notes refer me to Proverbs 3:11-12 for the source of the quote, which says "My son, do not despise the discipline of God, And do not loathe His reproof; For whom God loves He reproves, as a father the son whom he delights in."
No pysical punishment in "reproof."

It goes on to say in verse 9 "Moreover, we indeed had fathers of our flesh disciplining us, and we paid them respect...." So, it talks about earthly fathers disciplining, but doesn't say scourge or flog there.

01-13-2009, 02:29 AM

Wonder Woman · 01-13-2009, 04:24 AM

http://aolff.com/?page_id=42

Quote:

One interesting thing I’ve found about this passage that I will share. Apparently the word “scourge” first appears in the KJV and then is translated back into Greek texts by later translators. This is supported by the fact that the references in the study Bible are for Strong’s dictionary which is the dictionary for the KJV. I contacted the head of the Aramaic Society which is very much into researching the most original texts, and this is what I learned. Aramaic is the oldest Semitic language and basically original Hebrew. In the version of the Bible they are releasing, this is how the passage reads for verse 6: “For those whom the Lord loves He chastens him, and disciplines the son in whom He is pleased.” I was assured that in the oldest versions of this text the idea of scourge is nowhere present. Discipline yes. Scourge no. This would be a more accurate representation of the verses being cited.

TraceMama · 01-13-2009, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erinee

...but it's just very confusing to me how I'm supposed to read the Bible and know what the author was *really* saying when even the original text implies physical punishment. I want to be able to read and study it on my own. That's why I got the study Bible with the Hebrew & Greek dictionaries, but if even those are faulty, I don't know what to do...

...Sorry, just a moment of frustration.

I just had to comment by shaking my head.

I *so* totally understand this frustration and often wish that there were a way to get around all the difficulties of translation and word origins when it comes to studying the Bible. :/ In fact, your frustration is one of the reasons dh is hesitant to really dig into Bible study in the first place.

And what is this Bible that the Aramaic Society is releasing?

It sounds like it might try to address some of the bigger translation issues.

01-12-2009, 08:51 PM	#1
MaiMama Rose Garden Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: DFW Posts: 5,564	So what do we do about Hebrews 12:6? "because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." I thought y'all have said on here often that God doesn't punish his children. But this verse says he does. I believe in Gentle Parenting, but I know part of the argument is that God doesn't treat his kids that way, and this verse says he does. Now what? __________________ Mai Married to my love, Jimmy 3/9/2000 Grateful Mama to: Trinity Rain - The Matrix, 2004 Jackson Atreyu - The Neverending Story, 2006 Bella Adalyn - Twilight, 2009 and introducing: Lincoln Ambassador - Fringe, 12/16/2012 remembering Aviva Ata '08

01-12-2009, 08:53 PM	#2
Teribear Deactivated Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 7,691	Re: So what do we do about Hebrews 12:6? It is a poor translation. Crystal has a post on it somewhere I think. I'll see if I can find it.

01-12-2009, 09:02 PM	#3
brandi Deactivated 1 Imitate God, therefore, in everything that you do, because you are his dear children. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Alabama Posts: 3,814	Re: So what do we do about Hebrews 12:6?

01-12-2009, 09:38 PM	#4
erinee Rose Garden Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 8,072	Re: So what do we do about Hebrews 12:6? I wonder, too. I can't find a translation at blb.org that doesn't make this seem punitive. My own verision (NASB) says scourge. Mine is the Key Word Study BIble, which Crystal recommended to me, and the Greek word is mastigoo, which means "to scourge." Strong's (which I know some here don't like) adds that it's a "metaphor of God as a father chastising and training men as children by afflictions." I'm certainly NOT arguing in favor of punitive parenting, and even if this verse really is saying that God sometimes punishes his children, it wouldn't change my mind about spanking -- after all, I'm not God. I know Crystal will have an explanation, but it's just very confusing to me how I'm supposed to read the Bible and know what the author was really saying when even the original text implies physical punishment. I want to be able to read and study it on my own. That's why I got the study Bible with the Hebrew & Greek dictionaries, but if even those are faulty, I don't know what to do. And I know Paul was using Greek words to express Hebraic ideas, so it was rather limited, but right before the use of mastigoo he uses the word paideutes, which means instruction and nurture, the way we at GCM understand discipline. If Paul didn't mean that God also punishes us in addition to disciplining, why use a different verb? Sorry, just a moment of frustration. __________________ Erin, Saxophonist for Ginger and Her Baked Goods and The Starving Artists, Youth Services Specialist at the Elkhart Public Library, and Mom to Zach (3/98) and Elio (3/02)

01-12-2009, 09:42 PM	#5
happyhousewife Rose Garden Constantly striving to be a gentle mother. Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: East TX(the Ark-La-Tex) Posts: 4,002	Re: So what do we do about Hebrews 12:6? __________________ Child of the King ISFP Married since 1994 Mama to DS1- 13, DS2- 9, DS3- 6

01-12-2009, 09:43 PM	#7
hopefromgrace Climbing Rose Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,198	Re: So what do we do about Hebrews 12:6? __________________ Grace~ Married to Papa Bear, my soul mate, my love, my friend. Mama to Hope, my amazing, sweet, funny 9 y.o.! and precious baby Harmony born 9/6/10-my labor day baby! Both born at home. missing our angel babies, 9/07 and 11/08 When Mother Teresa received her nobel prize, she was asked,"What can we do to promote world peace?" She replied, "Go home and love your family."

01-12-2009, 09:59 PM	#9
light of mine Rose Trellis Baby smooches Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: TN Posts: 2,546	Re: So what do we do about Hebrews 12:6? __________________ ~Christina, WAHM, Devoted wife to my wonderful DH 2001, Loving mother to DD Cola 01/06 and DS Q-man 03/08, DD Nutter 'Butter 12/2010, and new DD babybear 11/13

01-12-2009, 10:04 PM	#10
BHope Rose Garden Finding the Good Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 12,816	Re: So what do we do about Hebrews 12:6? I started a post about this a year or two ago. I'm going to dig it up and see if helps at all. A few links to read: http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...topic=201463.0 http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...?topic=28507.0 http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...topic=101253.0 And ETA: I can't find the one where I actually participated in the discussion. Go figure. I'm too tired, I'll find it later. __________________ Manda Single Mama to my three beautiful kiddos: DD1 (8 years old) DD2 (6 years old) DD3 (4.5 years old) Eternally missing DFS3 (stored safely in our hearts) and DFS1 Praying for Little R as she transitions into a new family. May you always know God's love and His comfort.

01-12-2009, 10:06 PM	#11
Charlie U Rose Garden Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Ove Glove, saving hands like a BOSS. Posts: 14,643	Re: So what do we do about Hebrews 12:6? Here's a link from not too long ago. http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...topic=201463.0 __________________ "People are going to feel sorry for you. They'll tell you that you can't anticipate the unthinkable. The fact is you can. It's just not all that pleasant." - House But it's hard living life on this memory-go-round. Always up, always down. Spinning 'round and 'round and 'round. All this could be just a dream so it seems I was never much good at goodbye.

01-12-2009, 10:13 PM	#12
saturnfire16 Rose Garden Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: North Eastern CA Posts: 9,119	Re: So what do we do about Hebrews 12:6? In my Bible, this verse is in quotes starting in verse 5. "And you have forgotten the appeal which speaks to you as sons, "My son, do not despise the disciplinge of God, nor faint when you are reproved by Him, for whom God loves, He disciplines, and flogs every son whom He receives." The foot notes refer me to Proverbs 3:11-12 for the source of the quote, which says "My son, do not despise the discipline of God, And do not loathe His reproof; For whom God loves He reproves, as a father the son whom he delights in." No pysical punishment in "reproof." It goes on to say in verse 9 "Moreover, we indeed had fathers of our flesh disciplining us, and we paid them respect...." So, it talks about earthly fathers disciplining, but doesn't say scourge or flog there. __________________ ~Emily INTJ, Type 4 Wife to D Mama to: E 12/05 L 7/08 Z 12/10 A 6/14 and J in heaven 2/10 Torah Keeping, Unschooling Family My blog on unschooling and family life: Peace On Dark Nights.

01-13-2009, 02:29 AM	#13
Englishgirl Guest Posts: n/a	Re: So what do we do about Hebrews 12:6?

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