Gentle Christian Mothers Community
 
Random Quotes from Wise Mamas


Go Back   Gentle Christian Mothers Community > Specific Issues > Unprepared for Parenting (Ezzos, Pearls, Etc.) *Public*
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Unprepared for Parenting (Ezzos, Pearls, Etc.) *Public* Support and information for those affected by the Ezzos, the Pearls, and other punitive and adversarial methods of child-rearing.
A public forum.
Before posting here, please read this sticky and keep guideline 23 in mind:

23. No posts harshly dissecting parenting moments of others since we desire to humbly cultivate a heart attitude of grace and not judgment towards other mamas. We all struggle at times as parents and have much to learn, and GCM's focus is to provide tools and information for each of us to parent more effectively. Posts voicing some frustration regarding choices made by others can be okay, but it needs to be within the overall context of seeking understanding or ideas for better responses in the future.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-18-2007, 04:22 PM   #1
Atarah
Rose Garden
 
Everyone deserves to be treated with kindness.
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: long summer days, long winter nights
Posts: 13,664
Atarah has disabled reputation
Default psychological torture as 'creative correction'

My dh and I help clean a church for some extra $. When dusting the books in the library I find myself tempted by the books talked about here (that I've previously not had the desire to read). This week's 5 minute waste of my time was the bible study version of "Creative Correction" (by Lisa Whelchel, published by FOTF).

I only read a few of her 'creative' ideas, but I was immediately struck by how similar her suggestions are to psychological torture.

I went through prisoner of war training when I was in the military. It was in the early 90s (pre-Gulf War I), and much of the tactics used were those of Vietman era P.O.W.s. Some of the instructors had been P.O.W.s. During our training, they did not/were not able to physically torture us (there where things they did that caused minor pain to indicate, had it been a 'real' situation, when they would be dislocating our shoulders or hanging us up by our toes or the like). They did, however do a large amount of 'psychological' torture - all of which are mentioned in one form or another in the book:

deny food
deny use of electricity
hand cuff you to another person
blindfold
have stand in a corner with nose high on the wall - if nose drops below a certain line, add to the time, but don't explain why
control use of toilet facilities (even if just to 'make a point who's in charge')
mock you while they do these things to you

It's all 'crazing-making' stuff. It's supposed to be crazy-making stuff. As a prisoner of war, they are trying to completely break your will so you will do exactly what they want, when they want you to do it. We were adults, and knew what we were getting into. Prior to the exercise, we went through classroom training to learn how to resist the crazy-making. How to maintain your self-will when someone has complete control over you. How to fight so you don't actually go crazy. We knew the exercise would last no longer than 96 hours, and it was a miserable 4 days. But after it I was much better equipped had I ever become a P.O.W.

Admittedly, I was looking for the 'worst' examples in my 5 minutes (I had a job to do, afterall). But how can these things be justified as 'biblical'? Why would we want to treat our children like they are an 'enemy combatant'? Is striving for 'absolute control' of our children the least bit rational?
__________________
Laura INTP
Asheyt Chayl to dh M 8/03
Nurturing mama to ds B 9/04
and the long awaited one, dd E 5/10
Remembering two I'll hold in heaven


Study this week's Torah Portion! http://torahportions.org/
Atarah is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to Atarah For This Useful Post:
jandjmommy (03-12-2011), KSL (03-18-2011), L-Boogie (03-30-2011), malakoa (03-18-2011), nadezhda (03-10-2011), newday (03-08-2011), Peridot (03-07-2011), Quiteria (03-07-2011), Rose5000 (03-30-2011), StrangeTraveller (03-30-2011), TenderLovingWillow (03-19-2011)
Old 07-18-2007, 04:26 PM   #2
3PeasInAPod
Deactivated
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: pnw
Posts: 8,576
3PeasInAPod has a reputation beyond repute3PeasInAPod has a reputation beyond repute3PeasInAPod has a reputation beyond repute3PeasInAPod has a reputation beyond repute3PeasInAPod has a reputation beyond repute3PeasInAPod has a reputation beyond repute3PeasInAPod has a reputation beyond repute3PeasInAPod has a reputation beyond repute3PeasInAPod has a reputation beyond repute3PeasInAPod has a reputation beyond repute3PeasInAPod has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: psychological torture as 'creative correction'

ITU - I felt similar after reading exerts in her book. They're not creative - they're just plain mean & adversarial. It's sad, b/c her book is widely promoted as it's endorsed by FOTF.
3PeasInAPod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2007, 04:30 PM   #3
ArmsOfLove
Rose Garden
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 79,655
ArmsOfLove has disabled reputation
Default Re: psychological torture as 'creative correction'

thank you for that unique perspective. It confirms what I've always felt about the book
ArmsOfLove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2007, 08:14 PM   #4
Chris3jam
Rose Garden
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,861
Chris3jam has disabled reputation
Default Re: psychological torture as 'creative correction'

This makes me want to go talk to our assistant pastor (and pastor), who recommends this book in his "families under construction" class.
__________________
Wielder of the Cutlass of Acerbic Wit and the Phaser of Perseverance!
Chris3jam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2007, 08:23 PM   #5
mwwr
Deactivated
 
It is good to be Queen!
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Nothin' could be finer...
Posts: 8,257
mwwr has a reputation beyond reputemwwr has a reputation beyond reputemwwr has a reputation beyond reputemwwr has a reputation beyond reputemwwr has a reputation beyond reputemwwr has a reputation beyond reputemwwr has a reputation beyond reputemwwr has a reputation beyond reputemwwr has a reputation beyond reputemwwr has a reputation beyond reputemwwr has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: psychological torture as 'creative correction'

Wow. Very, very sad.
mwwr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2007, 08:31 PM   #6
Singingmom
Administrator
 
Oh, sing to the Lord a new song!
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 22,822
Singingmom has a reputation beyond reputeSingingmom has a reputation beyond reputeSingingmom has a reputation beyond reputeSingingmom has a reputation beyond reputeSingingmom has a reputation beyond reputeSingingmom has a reputation beyond reputeSingingmom has a reputation beyond reputeSingingmom has a reputation beyond reputeSingingmom has a reputation beyond reputeSingingmom has a reputation beyond reputeSingingmom has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: psychological torture as 'creative correction'

That is so very insightful! I read the book but never thought of any of that. Of course I've never had POW training, but still. It really is all about control, as is so much punitive parenting. What I find unsettling about that book is that in between these chapters about various control techniques are lovely lists of Bible verses to discuss with your children as they struggle with character issues. That's confusing for the parent reading it and trying to sort it all out. And one other thing sticks in my mind. She has her son make her bed every morning. In my sons that would breed resentment. What do you think about that, Atarah?
__________________
Kelly
Wife to my sweetheart for 23 years
Grateful mom to 2 young men, ages 20 & 18 and one dancing girl, age 13
When I joined GCM they were 8,6, and 1.

Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Singingmom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2007, 08:34 PM   #7
Teribear
Deactivated
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,704
Teribear has a reputation beyond reputeTeribear has a reputation beyond reputeTeribear has a reputation beyond reputeTeribear has a reputation beyond reputeTeribear has a reputation beyond reputeTeribear has a reputation beyond reputeTeribear has a reputation beyond reputeTeribear has a reputation beyond reputeTeribear has a reputation beyond reputeTeribear has a reputation beyond reputeTeribear has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: psychological torture as 'creative correction'

Thank you for confirming that this book is every bit as barbaric as I thought it was the first time I read it. I had a visceral reaction to this book. I thought it was my PTSD acting up because of that horrible story about her daughter Haven asking to be spanked...that story made my blood run cold, talk about setting a child up to become the perfect victim of domestic violence...I'm glad it wasn't "just me"
Teribear is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Teribear For This Useful Post:
Maggirayne (03-18-2011), teamommy (03-06-2011)
Old 07-18-2007, 08:41 PM   #8
Chris3jam
Rose Garden
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,861
Chris3jam has disabled reputation
Default Re: psychological torture as 'creative correction'

Quote:
She has her son make her bed every morning. In my sons that would breed resentment. What do you think about that, Atarah?
Oh, my. I don't remember that. I'm not Atarah, but, what is the reason she gives for that? That doesn't even make sense.
__________________
Wielder of the Cutlass of Acerbic Wit and the Phaser of Perseverance!
Chris3jam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2007, 08:49 PM   #9
Singingmom
Administrator
 
Oh, sing to the Lord a new song!
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 22,822
Singingmom has a reputation beyond reputeSingingmom has a reputation beyond reputeSingingmom has a reputation beyond reputeSingingmom has a reputation beyond reputeSingingmom has a reputation beyond reputeSingingmom has a reputation beyond reputeSingingmom has a reputation beyond reputeSingingmom has a reputation beyond reputeSingingmom has a reputation beyond reputeSingingmom has a reputation beyond reputeSingingmom has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: psychological torture as 'creative correction'

She's training him to help around the house, do chores. I think I'd come across as lazy if I had my boys make my bed. I feel like I'm setting a good example when I do things I expect them to do for themselves.
__________________
Kelly
Wife to my sweetheart for 23 years
Grateful mom to 2 young men, ages 20 & 18 and one dancing girl, age 13
When I joined GCM they were 8,6, and 1.

Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Singingmom is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Singingmom For This Useful Post:
ClassicMom (03-07-2011), gpsings (03-30-2011), Johns_Gal (03-07-2011), joyousTXmama (03-06-2011), Maggirayne (03-18-2011), Quiteria (03-07-2011), Shawn (03-06-2011)
Old 07-20-2007, 07:19 PM   #10
apmommyto4
Guest
 
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: psychological torture as 'creative correction'

I met her in person, and I got cold chills when she snickered about how her children's birthdays were "bittersweet", because they when they got spanked as punishment, they got a "spank" for every year of age.

I also still can't get over her putting Tabasco sauce on her son's toungue for lying. Or her daugher asking to be spanked when she was 2 or 3 or so. Or how she says that she homeschools when they haven't homeschooled since she started writing these crazy books all the time! arghh......I need to go to another post!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2007, 07:24 PM   #11
BHope
Rose Garden
 
Finding the Good
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 12,833
BHope has a reputation beyond reputeBHope has a reputation beyond reputeBHope has a reputation beyond reputeBHope has a reputation beyond reputeBHope has a reputation beyond reputeBHope has a reputation beyond reputeBHope has a reputation beyond reputeBHope has a reputation beyond reputeBHope has a reputation beyond reputeBHope has a reputation beyond reputeBHope has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: psychological torture as 'creative correction'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atarah
deny food
deny use of electricity
hand cuff you to another person
blindfold
have stand in a corner with nose high on the wall - if nose drops below a certain line, add to the time, but don't explain why
control use of toilet facilities (even if just to 'make a point who's in charge')
mock you while they do these things to you
Seriously, those things are in the book? Or were those things part of the POW training that were similiar to suggestions in the book?
__________________
Manda
Single Mama to my three beautiful kiddos:

DD1 (8 years old)
DD2 (6 years old)
DD3 (4.5 years old)

Eternally missing DFS3 (stored safely in our hearts) and DFS1
Praying for Little R as she transitions into a new family.
May you always know God's love and His comfort.
BHope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2007, 07:37 PM   #12
Soliloquy
Administrator
 
And then there's the roses ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: In the mountains
Posts: 40,348
Soliloquy has a reputation beyond reputeSoliloquy has a reputation beyond reputeSoliloquy has a reputation beyond reputeSoliloquy has a reputation beyond reputeSoliloquy has a reputation beyond reputeSoliloquy has a reputation beyond reputeSoliloquy has a reputation beyond reputeSoliloquy has a reputation beyond reputeSoliloquy has a reputation beyond reputeSoliloquy has a reputation beyond reputeSoliloquy has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: psychological torture as 'creative correction'

I encourage you to write to her, the publisher, and a review at amazon. What you've noticed is powerful and very important.
__________________
Lisa, 44. Married to My Hero for 20 years! Survivor of very severe aplastic anemia. Living with PNH

Firmly Planted.
"Since you have accepted Christ Jesus as Lord, live in union with him. Keep your roots deep in him, build your lives on him, and become stronger in your faith, as you were taught. And be filled with thanksgiving." Col 2:6-7

Moderator in Theological & Doctrinal Issues, Drawing Closer, Bible Study, & Educating Our Children

Mom to 5 wonderful kids!
G - 13 , S - 11 ,
F - 8 , J - 7
Surprise Baby L - 1
Soliloquy is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Soliloquy For This Useful Post:
joyinthejourney (03-06-2011), L-Boogie (03-30-2011), Maggirayne (03-18-2011)
Old 07-20-2007, 08:40 PM   #13
Chris3jam
Rose Garden
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,861
Chris3jam has disabled reputation
Default Re: psychological torture as 'creative correction'

Quote:
She's training him to help around the house, do chores.
Um, I think that doing his *own* chores would be plenty "training". Unless of course, she's making *his* bed for him, if the point is "serving" other people.
__________________
Wielder of the Cutlass of Acerbic Wit and the Phaser of Perseverance!
Chris3jam is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Chris3jam For This Useful Post:
gpsings (03-30-2011), ThreeKids (03-08-2011)
Old 07-21-2007, 04:44 AM   #14
Atarah
Rose Garden
 
Everyone deserves to be treated with kindness.
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: long summer days, long winter nights
Posts: 13,664
Atarah has disabled reputation
Default Re: psychological torture as 'creative correction'

Quote:
Originally Posted by BabyHopes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atarah
deny food
deny use of electricity
hand cuff you to another person
blindfold
have stand in a corner with nose high on the wall - if nose drops below a certain line, add to the time, but don't explain why
control use of toilet facilities (even if just to 'make a point who's in charge')
mock you while they do these things to you
Seriously, those things are in the book?
yes, those things are suggestiong in the book for dealing with various sorts of 'discipline' problems. yes, it is crazy.

Granted, some of the things they did during the POW training were "worse" than those examples, the but the goal is the same - crazy-making, 'control' of another person.
__________________
Laura INTP
Asheyt Chayl to dh M 8/03
Nurturing mama to ds B 9/04
and the long awaited one, dd E 5/10
Remembering two I'll hold in heaven


Study this week's Torah Portion! http://torahportions.org/
Atarah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2007, 04:58 AM   #15
Atarah
Rose Garden
 
Everyone deserves to be treated with kindness.
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: long summer days, long winter nights
Posts: 13,664
Atarah has disabled reputation
Default Re: psychological torture as 'creative correction'

As far as making the mom's bed for her. Like Chris said, maybe if it's about learning to 'serve' other people. But in a dynamic like the writer is setting up, I do think it would breed resentment. I think there's lots of other ways to encourage 'serving' in things that benefit the entire family - like helping with laundry or dishes or whatever.

The POW training did envolve 'slave labor' - we were trained to try to figure out who ultimately benefited from the labor and act accordingly. If it would only benefit the captors - excavating land to install anti-aircraft gun, for example - we were trained to sabatoge it at any cost. If it might benefit us, the captives - shelter or food or a way to escape - we were trained to take care of ourselves. In the training exercise, we didn't have the theat of physical harm.

In Ms. Whelchel's dynamic and in real POW dynamic there is the ever present threat of physical pain. Her book is (as far as I can tell) presented as options so you don't have to spank as much. But the physical assault is there as a threat and a backup if the children don't want to comply to the other punishments.

more later.... son calling.....
__________________
Laura INTP
Asheyt Chayl to dh M 8/03
Nurturing mama to ds B 9/04
and the long awaited one, dd E 5/10
Remembering two I'll hold in heaven


Study this week's Torah Portion! http://torahportions.org/
Atarah is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Atarah For This Useful Post:
Dana Joy (03-07-2011), Quiteria (03-07-2011)
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:24 AM.


A variety of opinions and ideas are shared on GCM. Personal experiences, suggestions, and tips found here are in no way intended to substitute for medical counsel from a healthcare professional. Always use your own good judgement and seek professional advice when in doubt about a health concern.

Amazon.com affiliate link

Copyright 1997-2014 by Gentle Christian Mothers™
An alternative-minded, evangelical Christian community supporting attachment parenting and natural living.

Do not post content elsewhere.
http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/community/

Some smilies created and copyrighted by Mazeguy.
Some smilies and avatars created and copyrighted by flowermama and children -- do not use elsewhere.

Soli Deo Gloria
To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. ~ Romans 16:27 (KJV)

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.