Gentle Christian Mothers Community
 
Random Quotes from Wise Mamas

~* Please help keep GCM free by using our
Amazon.com affiliate link. Thank you! *~


Go Back   Gentle Christian Mothers Community > Specific Issues > Gentle Discipline *Public* > GD Info and FAQs *Public*
Forgot Password? Join Us!

GD Info and FAQs *Public* The new home for most of the GD stickies. :)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-27-2007, 07:23 AM   #1
Katherine
Guest
 
 
Posts: n/a
Default the natural-to-logical consequences continuum

Can we talk a little more about this?

some good points were touched on in this thread:

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...topic=117853.0

like the difference between cause-and-effect and logical consequences, which I think assume the child will internalize a lesson and be able to predict events and apply the less to a future situation. but I sort of need to think through it in a bit more detail.

I sometimes get the impression from our discussions that logical consequences are "off limits" until that magical age/stage where you see your child using logic (or when he's "old enough") and then suddenly they're fine. Maybe that IS what's being said... or maybe there's more of a gradual transition that just not fleshed out each time we talk about it. Prior to the age of logic, everything is supposed to be varying degrees of natural consequences--which by definition must happen without any implementation from the parent.

Can we clarify the continuum... the process.... a little more? How, exactly, do you distinguish between cause-and-effect and an imposed consequence? The line seems a little blurry to me at the moment. Can you flesh out the "ramp up" to using logical consequences, for those of us who have trouble picturing it? (or is it really just a point-in-time thing when you can start using them)

Joanne mentioned once (a while back) that her children go through a progression with experiencing logical consequences... I wish I could remember her exact quote, but I understood it as: none in infancy--> a hint in the preschool years --> light use in pre-logic age --> full understanding when the age of logic sets in.





  Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 07:30 AM   #2
The Tickle Momster
Rose Garden
 
previously mlrowley
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: NW WA
Posts: 16,168
The Tickle Momster has a reputation beyond reputeThe Tickle Momster has a reputation beyond reputeThe Tickle Momster has a reputation beyond reputeThe Tickle Momster has a reputation beyond reputeThe Tickle Momster has a reputation beyond reputeThe Tickle Momster has a reputation beyond reputeThe Tickle Momster has a reputation beyond reputeThe Tickle Momster has a reputation beyond reputeThe Tickle Momster has a reputation beyond reputeThe Tickle Momster has a reputation beyond reputeThe Tickle Momster has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: the natural-to-logical consequences continuum

__________________
Michelle

wife to Tom ('95)
Momma to Sweet Pea 18
and Dude 16
Wee 14
'07
Munchkin 11
Save
Save
The Tickle Momster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 07:34 AM   #3
SouthPaw
Rose Garden
I support GCM!
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,903
SouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: the natural-to-logical consequences continuum

awww, you linked to my thread!

__________________
INTP Wife to: Mr. Aerospace
Mommy to:
Ballerina (8) Jester (7) Speedracer (6) Flying Squirrel (August '14)
SouthPaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 08:40 AM   #4
Katherine
Guest
 
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: the natural-to-logical consequences continuum

Yeah, DixieKitten... I've been rolling this around in my head lately, but I didn't want to hijack the other thread.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 02:34 PM   #5
Katherine
Guest
 
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: the natural-to-logical consequences continuum

an example might help...

Today we went to McDonald's playland. It was a treat cause we haven't been in quite a while. 15 min. in the boys got into an altercation up in the tubes and C. bit L...HARD. He had a clear set of teethmarks and it the skin was abraded. I was pretty shocked, tbh... it's not that they don't have their squabbles, but C. doesn't bite unless he's *really* worked up about something. L. came out and I checked him, comforted him, etc. C. came out and sat for a few minutes then said he was sorry. I told him he couldn't go back up in the tubesat all today. He was sad and disappointed, and kept looking at me mournfully... asked again a couple of times to see if I'd changed my mind... but he didn't really fight me on it--which also surprised me.

SO:

Was that cause and effect? or a logical consequence?

L. kept asking for C. to come back in with him and I explained it as: "I won't let C. go and play where I can't see him unless I know I can trust him to stay in his own space and respect other people's bodies. He didn't do that today so he has to stay out." and that sounds very cause-and-effect....

but I always used the phrase "you lost the privilege of playing in the tubes" to C.--which sounds very logical consequence.

And I could easily frame my response as either.

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 03:04 PM   #6
Amber
Rose Garden
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The rainy side of Washington.
Posts: 18,309
Amber has a reputation beyond reputeAmber has a reputation beyond reputeAmber has a reputation beyond reputeAmber has a reputation beyond reputeAmber has a reputation beyond reputeAmber has a reputation beyond reputeAmber has a reputation beyond reputeAmber has a reputation beyond reputeAmber has a reputation beyond reputeAmber has a reputation beyond reputeAmber has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: the natural-to-logical consequences continuum

One thing that I have encountered in talking about logical consequences etc, is that many people think that any sort of consequence (cause/effect, logical or natural) are pretty much all the same thing and they get easily confused with being punitive. Does that sentence acutally maek sence outside of my head My dh thinks that taking putting up a toy that is being thrown (after a warning etc) is a punsihment...I think it is just protecting myself from have hard projectiles being chucked at my head.

I think the example you gave is more of the cause and effect relationship. Oh, and I think you handled the situation well.

__________________
Amber ISFJ
Wife to my wonderful DH
And keeper of the boys
Big M (6/03) Forever ours Dec 2012
C (6/04),
Little M (10/05) Forever ours Dec 2012
K (5/06)

Missing our foster daughter Miss A
Amber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 04:25 PM   #7
ellies mom
Rose Trellis
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,891
ellies mom is a splendid one to beholdellies mom is a splendid one to beholdellies mom is a splendid one to beholdellies mom is a splendid one to beholdellies mom is a splendid one to beholdellies mom is a splendid one to beholdellies mom is a splendid one to beholdellies mom is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: the natural-to-logical consequences continuum

I think semantics get involved which makes it kind of confusing to have these conversations. See in my world, regarding my 3.5 yo DD, a logical consequence is what happens when I can't or won't allow the natural consequence to occur. It is a consequence that is logical to the situation. So putting away her toy after she throws it would be a logical consequence. Making the child wash the dishes or not letting her watch TV are not logical because they aren't related. And spanking her or putting her into timeout would be punishment because it goes the "extra step" So to me, at this point a logical consequence and "cause and effect" are very similar. I'm sure as DD gets older, my interpretation of "logical" will change. So I don't automatically view a logical consequence as bad.

In your example from McDonalds, I'm going to go with the "cause and effect" end of the spectrum, even if you used the words "you lost the privilege". It was still basically "you hit, you sit". And considering the circumstances, attaching an "I need to be able to see you playing" was appropriate.

__________________
Veronica
Mama to Ellie 11-03
Baby Audrey 4-08
ellies mom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 04:51 PM   #8
Katherine
Guest
 
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: the natural-to-logical consequences continuum

ok.. so maybe ya'll can give me some examples that illustrate the difference between cause-and-effect (appropriate for pre-logic children) and a logical, related consequence (not appropriate for pre-logic children)

I'm working on the concept as a whole and I'm just not sure I know what the difference is, other than the intention or expectations of the parent. :scrat
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 04:52 PM   #9
SouthPaw
Rose Garden
I support GCM!
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,903
SouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: the natural-to-logical consequences continuum

Quote:
Originally Posted by palil
ok.. so maybe ya'll can give me some examples that illustrate the difference between cause-and-effect (appropriate for pre-logic children) and a logical, related consequence (not appropriate for pre-logic children)

I'm working on the concept as a whole and I'm just not sure I know what the difference is, other than the intention or expectations of the parent. :scrat
i thought that WAS the difference
__________________
INTP Wife to: Mr. Aerospace
Mommy to:
Ballerina (8) Jester (7) Speedracer (6) Flying Squirrel (August '14)
SouthPaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 05:12 PM   #10
Katherine
Guest
 
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: the natural-to-logical consequences continuum

Quote:
i thought that WAS the difference
wellll... Maybe it is.. ? I'm truly asking... trying to sort it out in my own mind.

Quote:
I think semantics get involved which makes it kind of confusing to have these conversations. See in my world, regarding my 3.5 yo DD, a logical consequence is what happens when I can't or won't allow the natural consequence to occur. It is a consequence that is logical to the situation. So putting away her toy after she throws it would be a logical consequence. Making the child wash the dishes or not letting her watch TV are not logical because they aren't related. And spanking her or putting her into timeout would be punishment because it goes the "extra step" So to me, at this point a logical consequence and "cause and effect" are very similar. I'm sure as DD gets older, my interpretation of "logical" will change. So I don't automatically view a logical consequence as bad.
I do understand what you're saying... I'm trying to grasp whether it is *ALL* a matter of semantics, or if there is some crucial element that distinguishes appropriate cause-and-effect responses to a pre-logic child from inappropriate logical consequences to a pre-logic child.

Not allowing a natural consequence to happen is what I consider blocking natural consequences or protecting something/one. That's different from generating an "effect" as a disciplinary response to a child's behavioral "cause."

(still mulling... thanks for the responses and I'm continuing to read/think)



  Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 05:13 PM   #11
SouthPaw
Rose Garden
I support GCM!
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,903
SouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: the natural-to-logical consequences continuum

i get what youre saying now. ill be back. feeding baby applesauce at keyboard
__________________
INTP Wife to: Mr. Aerospace
Mommy to:
Ballerina (8) Jester (7) Speedracer (6) Flying Squirrel (August '14)
SouthPaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 05:45 PM   #12
ellies mom
Rose Trellis
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,891
ellies mom is a splendid one to beholdellies mom is a splendid one to beholdellies mom is a splendid one to beholdellies mom is a splendid one to beholdellies mom is a splendid one to beholdellies mom is a splendid one to beholdellies mom is a splendid one to beholdellies mom is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: the natural-to-logical consequences continuum

Quote:
Originally Posted by palil
Quote:
i thought that WAS the difference
wellll... Maybe it is.. ? I'm truly asking... trying to sort it out in my own mind.

Quote:
I think semantics get involved which makes it kind of confusing to have these conversations. See in my world, regarding my 3.5 yo DD, a logical consequence is what happens when I can't or won't allow the natural consequence to occur. It is a consequence that is logical to the situation. So putting away her toy after she throws it would be a logical consequence. Making the child wash the dishes or not letting her watch TV are not logical because they aren't related. And spanking her or putting her into timeout would be punishment because it goes the "extra step" So to me, at this point a logical consequence and "cause and effect" are very similar. I'm sure as DD gets older, my interpretation of "logical" will change. So I don't automatically view a logical consequence as bad.
I do understand what you're saying... I'm trying to grasp whether it is *ALL* a matter of semantics, or if there is some crucial element that distinguishes appropriate cause-and-effect responses to a pre-logic child from inappropriate logical consequences to a pre-logic child.

Not allowing a natural consequence to happen is what I consider blocking natural consequences or protecting something/one. That's different from generating an "effect" as a disciplinary response to a child's behavioral "cause."

(still mulling... thanks for the responses and I'm continuing to read/think)
OK let's see...

For pre-logic children, cause and effect and logical consequences should be the same. If a pre-logic child needs "cause and effect" consequences than a consequence that is not related is not logical, and is most likely inappropriate.

If Ellie colours on the wall, she helps me clean the wall and we put away the crayons and move on to something else. It is related and appropriate. She can make the connection between "I colour on the walls means I can't colour". Now say Ellie coloured on the walls and I told her she had to turn off the TV for the night. It is unrelated. There is no cause and effect. It would be an inappropriate logical consequence for a pre-logic child because they aren't going to make the connection. Now say it was an older child capable of a basic level of logic, it might be appropriate. It is still unrelated but the child can make the connection.

Ok, I need to come back to this, a certain pre-logic child is convinced she is going to starve and I can't think.

__________________
Veronica
Mama to Ellie 11-03
Baby Audrey 4-08
ellies mom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 06:23 PM   #13
Katherine
Guest
 
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: the natural-to-logical consequences continuum

Quote:
She can make the connection between "I colour on the walls means I can't colour".
ok.. this is where I see disagreement. I know you were speaking specifically for *your* child, but as a general concept, many toddlers, 2yos, and even older are *not* (according to some) developmentally capable of making that connection. They may not have the recall memory to pull up that previous sequence of events... they may not be able to think cognitively enough to predict that the same thing will happen again... and they may not have the impulse control to stop themselves even if they *could* do those first two things.

As for the issue of a consequence being related... let me see if I can articulate what I'm thinking here... a consequence must be related in order to truly BE logical. But that doesn't speak to the issue of whether related, logical consequences are appropriate and effective for pre-logic children.

You said earlier there is very little difference between cause/effect and logical consequences, and indeed that is where I keep going around in mental circles--they seem like the same approach (age-modulated, of course) with different labels and intentions. The reason I am experiencing confusion is because I've always understood "logical consequences" as being considered punitive (under the GBD umbrella, at least) when they are used before around age 8.

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 06:25 PM   #14
SouthPaw
Rose Garden
I support GCM!
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,903
SouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond reputeSouthPaw has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: the natural-to-logical consequences continuum

dangit it's all mixing around in my head but it's not words yet. i'm percolating. there's something to this and it's important but i can't quite put my finger on it.
__________________
INTP Wife to: Mr. Aerospace
Mommy to:
Ballerina (8) Jester (7) Speedracer (6) Flying Squirrel (August '14)
SouthPaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 06:29 PM   #15
Katherine
Guest
 
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: the natural-to-logical consequences continuum

I've got time. Keep percolating, girl!!

(and completely off topic... anybody remember REAL perclating coffee pots? My Papa wouldn't drink coffee any other way, and I remember waking up early in the morning to the aroma of coffee and the gentle plop-plopping of the percolator... ahhhh )
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:07 AM.


A variety of opinions and ideas are shared on GCM. Personal experiences, suggestions, and tips found here are in no way intended to substitute for medical counsel from a healthcare professional. Always use your own good judgement and seek professional advice when in doubt about a health concern.

Amazon.com affiliate link

Copyright 1997-2017 by Gentle Christian Mothers™
An alternative-minded, evangelical Christian community supporting attachment parenting and natural living.

Do not post content elsewhere.
http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/community/

Some smilies created and copyrighted by Mazeguy.
Some smilies and avatars created and copyrighted by flowermama and children -- do not use elsewhere.

Soli Deo Gloria
To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. ~ Romans 16:27 (KJV)

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.