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Old 07-12-2005, 11:40 PM   #1
cobluegirl
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Default Tylenol, Fevers, & Chickenpox

Posted with permission of author, Hilary Butler

Quote:
Archives: Chickenpox, Tylenol and Necrotising Fasciitis. Also, Paracetamol for NZ'rs.
An old post to a doc...

Can we discuss Chickenpox, tylenol and the vaccine please?

You said two things recently - that additives in vaccines were to the rate of 1 part per million, and, that chickenpox kills.

First, Additives in the chickenpox vaccine.

A nurse rang me yesterday, because she was threatened that if her child was not vaccinated against chickpox, she would lose her job in a old people's home. No, the logic of that escapes me too, but never mind. She had rung the local immunisation people and asked what was in the vaccine. She was told she didn't need to know, because it was perfectly safe, which annoyed her, so she rang me. I read to her from the Varivax sheet, because that is the one the doctor wanted her daughter to have. This sheet says:

"Each 0.5 ml dose contains the following; a minimum of 1350 plaque forming units of Oka/Merck varicella virus when reconstituted...12.5mg hydrolyzed gelatin, 3.2mg sodium chloride, 0.5 mg monosodium L-glutamate, 0.45mg of sodium phosphate dibasic, 0.08 mg of potassium phosphate monobasic, 0.08 mg of potassium chloride; residual components of MRC-5 cells including DNA and protein; and trace quantities of sodium phosphate onobasic, EDTA, neomycin and fetal bovine serum."

Firstly, she was surprised by the neomycin, because the manual says that this is never to be given internally - it is for external use only. I could not explain this rather obvious contradiction in the published literature.

She wanted to know what MRC-5 was, and how much was trace quantities. I explained to her that each dose of Varivax has 2 nanograms of "modified mammalian DNA (Pg 522, Journal of Paediatrics, Volume 127, No4, October 1995) and that this tissue came from aborted foetal tissue which was cultured (immortalised). I also explained that studies had showed that this tissue had a 7:12 chromosome translocation, but that the FDA's assessment was that the risk of MRC-4 DNA's inducing a malignant transformation in vaccinees was exceedingly low. What that meant, I did not know.

Then she asked what fetal bovine serum was, and whether it was safe. I told her that it was blood from unborn calves, removed at the meatworks, and could not be guaranteed totally safe, because commercial lots used in MMR were found to contain bovine diarrhoeal pestiviruses which had been known to cause problems in humans (Journal of Clinical Microbiology, June 1994, pg 1604-1605) and that usually it was not picked up in manufacture, because it didn't cause any cell changes in the culture medium. And also, the trascripts I have of many of the other cell substrate international meetings have listed a whole range of problems for fetal bovine serum which don't actually get into the medical literature...I also read out from other known contaminants of fetal bovine serum from some WHO documents. I could not specify what trace amounts are.

I also pointed out that medical literature was indicating that allergic reactions to the MMR were now "thought" to be from modified gelatin, and since this one had 12.5 milligrams of that too, there was a very small potential, theoretical risk from that, especially as her daughter was an asthmatic.

She asked where the Oka strain came from, and I told her it was obtained from a Japanese boy and made weaker by passage through human embryonic lung fibroblasts (again, aborted fetal tissue), then guinea pig embryonic cells, then two different human aborted fetal lines called WI-38 and MRC-5. the vaccine is then manufactured in bulk by infecting the aborted foetal line called MRC-5.

We also discussed the procedures involved in reducing the human DNA to 2 nanograms in each dose.

These things are not 1 part per million, as you stated..... though I realise that your statement was a very broad generalised thought... but it was not fact, for any vaccine, and you, as a paediatrician, should know that.

This nurse considered all this, and decided not to vaccinate her allergic child. I guess she will have to have a few words with her boss. As a health professional, she chose not to do it.

My husband has three children from his first marriage. (His first wife was killed in the Erebus aeroplane crash in Antartica a long time ago.) One family has three children, so we have three grandchildren. Two of them have been vaccinated with Varivax (the third is too young) - to them, vaccines are compulsory.

So I was very surprised when her children came down with quite bad chickenpox, and she came around saying "Wasn't it wonderful that we had vaccines, because without them, her children would have died".

We took out the photographs of our children when they had chickenpox which showed far less severe and fewer spots. We also pointed out that she was around at that time, in case she didn't remember, and neither of them were vaccinated.

What's more we pointed out that neither of them had mild encephalitis as did her younger one. She just sat there. And then incredibly, said: "Well I think the vaccine saved my children's lives".

What could we say? When people won't listen, they won't listen.

Second - you said that recently, it has been shown that chickenpox can kill . I have looked at all the recent cases of serious chickenpox cases, and in all cases the alert that I take from the literature is not so much to chickenpox, but the use of tylenol or Ibuprofen. Which I know, in your country, is what every nurse tells every mother to give every child with a temperature. In this country, we use a similar thing called Paracetamol. Some chickenpox cases got necrotising fasciitis, (Ped Infect Dis J 1995 Jul;14(7): 588-94)....again ....why?

We all know that NSAIDS like tylenol and iboprofen are implicated in necrotising fasciitis.

Another one (Infect Med 16 (5):307, 1999 noted severe Group A beta-hemolytic strap in children who had had antipyretic medication.

MMWR, May 15, 1998, Vol 47 No 18 listed chickenpox cases too. But these parents don't appear to have been asked about Nonsteroid anti-inflammatories, or - tylenol. Why is that? Youu know it is the most common co-factor to Necrotising Fasciitis under any circumstance. Or, if you don't know that, why dont you know that?

Pediatrics Vol 103, No 4, April 1999, pg 783+ again noted the association of ibuprofen with serious complications - and elsewhere in the same issue.

We have on file medical articles which show that if you take antipyretics you can

1) Prolong the flu

2) Worsen the outcome of malaria.

3) Induce pneumonitis

4) Acta Paediatri Jpn 1994 Aug;36(4):375-8 shows that administration of any antipyretic drugs in children with infectious diseases worsens their illnesses.

5) Provoke a simple disease like Chicken-pox into a killer disease in normal children. It can already do that in immuno compromised children without tylenol. But there is a specific reason for them, as a sub-group for it to be dangerous. Even a simple cold can kill an immunosuppressed child. But we are talking about supposedly "normal" children, are we not?

6) We also have evidence on file to show that it is a major factor in provoking mild meningitis into serious meningococcal meningitis.

Why? Because it appears that anti-pyretics down-regulate the immune response.

This is only natural, since the reason for a fever is to switch on certain cytokines, and push the immune system up from the fourth gear to the tenth (simplistically put as an imagery picture, here), to help deal with the problem.

There is very clear evidence that tylenol creates an ineffective immune system[b] in some children, and as Ped Infect Dis 1996:15: 355-53 points out about the immune system in general - not in particular to Tylenot - [b]"an ineffective immune response to certain organisms can result in life-threatening infection."

Better yet, a Journal called Family Practice, Volume 3, No 2, 1996 stated:

"Paracetamol prescribing is reaching epidemic proportions and the potential dangers of hepatotoxicity and the inhibition of the immune response in children are discussed."

He goes on to say:

"Despite our lack of knowledge about its therapeutic mechanism, it has been claimed to be a safe drug, especially for children...there is mounting evidence that paracetamil is not the benign drug that it was formally thought to be... We would question the whole rational of prescribing the drug in near epidemic proportions...there is little concern about its use in the short term as an ANALGESIC, there is considerable controversy over its use as an antipyretic...tylenol/paracetamol may decrease antibody response to infection and increase morbidity and mortality in severe infections....too many parents and health workers think that fever is bad and needs to be suppressed by paracetamio, when indeed, moderate fever may improve the immune response."

In another earlier study in the Lancet March 9, 1991 pg 591 it was stated "Studies have clearly shown that fever helps laboratory animals to survive an infection whereas antipyresis increases mortality (death). Moreover, there is considerable in-vitro evidence that a variety of human immunological defences function better at febrile temperatures than at normal ones."

It is a natural thing to say that if your child was vaccinated against chickenpox, they won't get it (....? maybe) so you then wouldn't have to worry about the use of tylenol.

My feeling is that tylenol should never be used in any case of infectious disease, for several reasons - first, it suppresses the immune system. Second it makes most children sleepy. Third - the combination of those two factors can mask critical symptoms which would alert a parent to a problem, so that as in the case of many if not most of the recent chickenpox cases - by the time they get to hospital, the situation is very severe indeed.

Do you think then, in the light of the literature, all parents should be warned that while they can use Tylenol, or paracetamol as as ANALGESIC - or pain relief, that they should never use it for infectious diseases? And also, why is it that nurses always tell mothers to do this? Is it to shut them up? It is always Give them tylenol, and if you are still worried tomorrow, ring the surgery...." This is a poor substitute for good clinical management, don't you think?

Secondly, in the context of the cases where the use of ibuprofen or tylenol has changed chickenpox into serious secondary fatal bacterial infections, isn't that a case, not for a vaccine, but for iatrogenic mistakes to be investigated? After all, it wasn't the
parent's fault.

Thirdly, since I cannot find any evidence to show that all the ingredients in the Varivax vaccine are safe, will not cause problems, and will not cause cancer, I think that before anyone used these vaccines, they should know exactly what is in them, that this research has not been done, and the long-term dangers are therefore unknown. Don't you?

What I want to discuss here is the need for all facets of issues to be discussed. So often your posts are very simple, but this might not always reflect the complete picture.

What do you think?

__________________________________

She never replied




There will be some double up from above. This is a post I put up ages ago, on Parent's place, when a different doc, not a paediatrician, challenged me about a statement that the routine use of paracetamol by mothers for everything from teething to mother's little helper (it is a great tranquilliser!!!) was child abuse. .

Needless to say, again I got no reponse. I gathered later, however from an associate of this doctor who was prepared to talk to me, that she was totally shocked, since she had never read any of the medical literature on the immunological aspects of antipyretics.

Which is pretty common. Very few paediatrin nurses here (and I know, as I have done talks on the subject to post-grad paediatric nurses) have a clue as to either the immune system, and how it works (what little we know of that - and much of that is sheer speculation) or the ramifications of the use of anti-pyretics.

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Old 07-12-2005, 11:42 PM   #2
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Default Re: Tylenol, Fevers, & Chickenpox

Quote:
PARACETAMOL. (USA TYLENOL,IBUPROFEN etc)

Your child is scratchy, your child has a temperature, your child is irritable, and you ring the doctor's surgery, and the voice on the other end says what it always says" "Just give Pamol, dear, and come back tomorrow if you are still worried.

What is the purpose of fever? What do parents believe about fever? Should it be treated with antipyretics? Why do doctors prescribe antipyretics? What does the medical literature say about the biological impact of paracetamol?

Antipyretics are also recommended prior to vaccination, though in this country, this advice is given hesitantly, since there is debate that antipyretics could "conceal" medically significant symptoms, and confuse diagnosis.

EXTRACTS FROM MEDICAL LITERATURE:

"Not all fevers need to be treated but many physicians do so to relieve parental concern." (Eur J Ped 1994 Jun; 153 (6): 394-402)

"An elevation in temperature following bacterial infection results in a significant increase in host survival" (Science 1975 Apr 11; 188 (4184): 166-8)

"Many components of the nonspecific host defence response to infection such as leukocyte mobility, lymphocyte transformation, and the effects of interferon, appear to be enhanced by elevations in temperature that simulate moderate fevers. In addition, some evidence indicates that a fever in conjunction with the changes in plasma iron levels known to occur during infections is a synergistic host defence response." (Pediatrics 1980, No: 66 (5) : 720 - 723)

"Parental fever phobia and its correlates...surprising, higher socioeconomic status was not associated with a lesser degree of fever phobia...undue fear and overly aggressive treatment of fever are epidemic among parents of infants and young children, even among the highly educated and well-to-do. considerable effort will be required on the part of pediatricians and other child health workers to reeducate that parents about the definition, consequences and appropriate treatment of fever." (Pediatrics 1985 June;75 (6) 1110-1113)

"There is no convincing evidence that naturally occuring fevers are harmful. In contrast, animal studies have shown that fever helps animals to survive and infection whereas antipyretic increases mortality. Moreover there is considerable in vitro evidence that a variety of human immunological defences function better at febrile temperatures than at normal one." (The Lancet, Volume 337, March 9, 1991)

"Many cytokines are endogenous mediators of fever including interleukin (IL) -, 1 beta, IL-6 and others. Tumor necrosis factor-alpha may be both an endogenous pyrogen and an endogenous antipyretic or cryogen." (Neuroimmunomodulation 1995 Jul-Aug; 2 (4)16-223)

"There is overwhelming evidence in favor of fever being an adaptive host response to infection... as such, it is probable that the use of antipyretic/anti-inflammatory/analgesic drugs, when they lead to suppression of the fever, result in increased morbidity and mortality during most infections; this morbidity and mortality may not be apparent to most health care workers..." Infect Dis Clin North Am 1996 Mar;10(1) : 1-20.)

Acetaminophen can induce pneumonia..."These finding suggest that allergic mechanism was involved in the pathogenesis of the pneumonitis. Underlying immunological disorders may have enhanced the occurrence." Nihon Kyobu Shikkan Gakkai Sasshi 1997 Sep; 35 (9) 974-9) There are other reports of this as well...

"the results suggest that lung disease (rheumatoid lung) associated with collagen vascular diseases may be exacerbated by drug-induced (acetaminophen) pneumonitis." Nihon Kyobu Shikkan Gakkai Sasshi 1997 Oct; 35 (10) 1113-1118)

"Despite our lack of knowledge about its therapeutic mechanism, it has been claimed to be a safe drug, especially for children... paracetamol syrup (presumably for children) is extensively prescribed in large volumes...There is mounting evidence that paracetamol is not the benign drug that it was formally thought to be... We would question the whole rationale of prescribing the drug in near epidemic proportions. If it is to be used as a placebo, then it is a very dangerous placebo... The whole place of paracetamol prescribing for children has been questioned. While there is little concern about its use in the short term as an analgesic, there is considerable controversy over its use as an antipyretic....there is little evidence to support the use of paracetamol to treat fever in patients without heart or lung disease. Paracetamol may decreast antibody response to infection and increase morbidity and mortality in severe infections...too many parents and health workers think that fever is bad and needs to be suppressed by paracetamol when, indeed, moderate fever may improve the immune response...the use of paracetamol in children with acute infection did not result in an improvement in mood, comfort, appetite or fluid intake." (Family Practice, Volume 13, No 2, 1996 pgs 179 - 181)

"Fever is rarely harmful. Only extremely high fevers of 42.2C or 108 F or higher have been known to cause brain damage. Only fevers of 40.5C or 105F and higher need immediate attention, mainly because they are a clue that a serious infection could be present "(such as meningitis) (Sunday Star Times, May 3, 1998, C3) doctor's column.

"Paracetamol has no antipyretic benefits over mechanical antipyreses alone in ..malaria. Moreover, paracetamol prolongs parasite clearance time, possible by decreased production of TNF and oxygen radicals. " (Lancet 1997;350:704-709)


"The data suggest that frequent administration of antipyretics to children with infectious disease may lead to a worsening of their illness." (Acta Paed. Jpn 1994 Aug;36 (4) 375-378)

"Fever is an important indicator of disease and should not be routinely suppressed by antipyretics...fever may actually benefit the host defense mechanism...fever is short-lived and causes only minor discomfort...routine antipyretic therapy should be avoided byt may be necessary in individual patients with cardiovascular or neurologic disorders."(Infect Dis Clin North Am 1996 Mar;10 (1) 211-216)

"Studies of bacterial and viral-infected animals have shown that moderate fevers decrease morbidity and increase survival rate" (Yale J Biol Med 1986 Mar-April; 59 (2) : 89-95)

"Antipyretic drugs are effective in diminishing fever, but have significant side effects and may suppress signs of ongoing infections" (Arch Intern Med 1990, Aug; 150 (8): 1589-1597)

Meningococcal Disease: "use of analgesics were associated with disease...analgesic use was defined as analgesics taken in the past 2 weeks, excluding, for cases, those taken for identified early symptoms of meningococcal disease. These analgesics were predominantly acetaminophen products......because analgesics showed a stronger relationship with meningococcal disease, the use of analgesics may be a better measure of more severe illness than reported individual symptoms....we cannot exclude the possibility that acetaminophen use itself is a risk factor for meningococcal disease" (Ped Infec Dis, Oct 2000, Vol 19, No 10, 983-990)

"Antipyretics prolong illness in patients with Influenza A.... The duration of illness was significantly prolonged from 5 days(without) to 8 1/2 days (with). Pharmacotherapy 2000, 20: 417-422)

Take two aspirin, prolong the flu - 2 January 2001 Anne Burke, HealthScout Reporter (also reported by Reuters medical news...) "Taking aspirin or Tylenol for the flu actually prolongs the illness by up to 3 1/2 days, say researchers at the University of Maryland. That is because fever may be the body's natural way of fighting an infection and taking aspirin or acetaminophen - the generic name for products such as Tylenol - may interefere with the process. "You are messing with Mother Nature," Says Dr Leland Rickman, an associate clinical professor of medicine at the University of California San Diego. "An elevated temperature may actually help the body fight the infection quicker or better than if you don't have a fever."
"Whatever you do, don't give aspirin or Tylenol to children who have the flu or any other viral illness", Rickman said end quote.

"These results suggest that the systematic suppression of fever may not be useful in patients without severe cranial trauma or significant hypoxemia. Letting fever take its natural course does not seem to harm patients with systemic inflammatory response syndrome, or influence the discomfort level AND MAY SAVE COSTS." (wow!!!) (Arch Intern Med 2001, Jan 8; 161 (1) 121-123)

Chickenpox treated with Tylenol/Ibuprofen provokes bacterial skin infections into fulminant necrotising fasciitis (Pediatr I(Pediatrics Vol 103, No 4, April 1999, 783-784 and 785-790) (Infect Med1999 16 (5):307) Just two of many references for antipyretic induced complications of chickenpox.

(In MMWR - May 15, 1998, Vol 47 No 18. All cases of Varicella related deaths were treated with antipyretics. No causal association was investigated or ascribed. The "solution" to the problem was considered to be mandatory vaccination.)

To the parents on this board:

What you do as a parent, is your choice. Make sure that it is an "informed" choice. Get the articles referenced, do a med-line search - retrieve any others. Read the whole articles. Give them to your doctor to read, and discuss them with him/her.

Most importantly, if you feel your child has an immunodeficiency, get your child tested so that you know what you are dealing with.

How a child handles any infectious disease is dependant upon the immune system inherited, nutritional status, life-style, environment and resultant stresses and how the child reacts to them. 90% of that, you can control, but to do that, you have to have the knowledge to do so. Which is something most doctors trained today, don't have. Their speciality is cross-references the "perceived" symptoms with the most up to date physicians desk reference, and writing a drug prescription. Which is, in my opinion, not the best or even the right way to create healthy children.

And remember too, I have an immunodeficiency, as does one of my children. So I am not talking out of my left ear.

The choice is yours.




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Old 07-14-2005, 06:43 PM   #3
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Default Re: Tylenol, Fevers, & Chickenpox

WOW! Thank you so much for posting this. I read some of it, and will go through more thoroughly later. (it's not exactly light reading!)

We vaxed our first, stopped midway through with our second (our ped just thinks we are behind.. so I still have that conversation ahead of me) and are nervously comtemplating NOT vaxing our third, due in Dec. This is such great and detailed info--not only about vaxing, but also Tylenol and Ibuprofen. I knew a lot of natural minded folk didn't use them, but I had never seen a really thorough explanation of why. Good stuff to think about. Thanks!
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Old 09-27-2005, 07:59 PM   #4
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Default Re: Tylenol, Fevers, & Chickenpox

Yes, Rachael, thanks SO much for posting this. I was on the cusp of vaccinating ds against chickenpox and MMR, having vaxed up to these last shots due to marital turmoil (afraid ds would have to go into daycare, fear of eh using the non-vaxing stance against me), and reading posts such as this makes me feel brave enough to stand my ground that I do NOT want to get these last 2 shots. My ped just thinks we're behind, too.
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Old 11-22-2005, 06:42 PM   #5
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Default Re: Tylenol, Fevers, & Chickenpox

this is awesome info! I have this fear of giving my sick children tylenol....I really do feel it prolongs the sickness and is fighting against instead of with their little immune systems....this does mean, however, that I have to stay close by and try to actively comfort them more than if they were on meds the whole time..I have some friends who go through bottle after bottle of tylenol when it is cold and flu season....YIKES! Their kids go to church and school sick because after all they can keep going if the tylenol is administered every four hours. this has got to be unhealthy. Sorry, I don't mean to roast people, its just that I am the one considered weird because I will let my child run a fever and stay in bed and be a little more uncomfortable. But, I think it is time this info got out and that doctors start being honest with parents instead of afraid of them.
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Old 11-27-2005, 06:10 PM   #6
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Default Re: Tylenol, Fevers, & Chickenpox

Awesome articles! My cousin just told me about Hilary Butler a few months ago and I love her writing!
And I've been called a meanie by friends for not giving ds Tylenol when he has a fever.
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Old 11-27-2005, 08:37 PM   #7
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Default Re: Tylenol, Fevers, & Chickenpox

Quote:
Originally Posted by chelsea
And I've been called a meanie by friends for not giving ds Tylenol when he has a fever.
I know what you mean here. I use homeopathic fever reducer (Newton's) and that way it gets him through the fever without masking it, and you can tell people you're "giving him something" for his fever.
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Old 11-28-2005, 11:53 AM   #8
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Default Re: Tylenol, Fevers, & Chickenpox

ps Hilary is coming out with a book.....won't be available in the states but I am on her list..hehe
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Old 11-28-2005, 12:39 PM   #9
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Default Re: Tylenol, Fevers, & Chickenpox

Who is Hillary Butler and what are the titles of her books?
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Old 11-28-2005, 01:01 PM   #10
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Default Re: Tylenol, Fevers, & Chickenpox

Quote:
ps Hilary is coming out with a book.....won't be available in the states but I am on her list..hehe
Awesome!!
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Old 12-12-2005, 01:50 PM   #11
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Default Re: Tylenol, Fevers, & Chickenpox

O Wow! I am trippin'!

Last time dd had a fever, I told DH that God made our bodies to get hotter to fight off infection...wasn't it kind of a moot point to give her something to get rid of the fever? (as I went ahead and made him happy by giving her tylenol) I had no idea that I was actually on to something with that though and that God was setting me up to read this stuff and be like, "Ah hah! See! I'm not goofy!"

Anyway, thank you for posting this! I'll be sure to share with DH....and many others!

Mandy
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Old 12-12-2005, 03:10 PM   #12
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Mandy, there's that mothering instinct God gave you!
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Old 08-16-2006, 03:24 PM   #13
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Default Re: Tylenol, Fevers, & Chickenpox

Great info!!! Thanks so much. My SIL's DD had a fever and her ped prescribed Motrin and Tylenol to be given AT THE SAME TIME!!!!! Can you believe it???? I told her to stop giving it to her, obviously. She knows I am a natural-minded momma who doesn't give conventional meds so she was quick to ask me my opinion. Some peds are just flat out nuts!!!
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Old 08-16-2006, 08:46 PM   #14
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Default Re: Tylenol, Fevers, & Chickenpox

A ped (not my regular one - it was a weekend and she kindly saw him in the office on off hours so we would not have to go to the ER) did that when ds had a severe cold, more like a flu, this last winter...she said the same thing about Tylenol, Motrin, a decongestant, and cough medicine all at once!!
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Old 08-16-2006, 09:41 PM   #15
healthymomof3
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Default Re: Tylenol, Fevers, & Chickenpox

That's just insane!!! Your poor DS!!
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