Explain Gothard to me please...

Katigre · 06-16-2005, 08:56 PM

I see him referred to around the boards, i've heard very conservative/fundamentalist/separatist people mention liking him, and i know he is somehow big in the courtship/betrothal subculture (i got the feeling he was one of the first ones to espouse it way back when), but i don't have a good handle on his specific teachings, beliefs, issues, etc...

Can anyone give me a brief summary? And what does "ATI" stand for? (i've seen that referenced as a conference he puts on or something?)

MarynMunchkins · 06-16-2005, 09:02 PM

http://billgothard.com/bill/

I've tried to block out most of the memories of my experience at his stupid conferences, but he's very um...conservative, for lack of a better word. I do remember that he teaches that any music with drums or electric guitar is inherently evil and praises Satan.

Guess God only likes organ music...:P

UltraMother · 06-16-2005, 10:11 PM

No, you need to stick to acapella hymns to be really safe

. ATI stands for Advanced Training Institute. It's Gothard's next step for those who have really liked his seminars and want to follow him further. He believes himself to be quite an authority on how to raise children, but in truth, he's never even married, let alone had kids of his own. I like what this guy has to say, but he mentions lots of catch phrases and inside jokes that might leave you scratching your head.

MarynMunchkins · 06-17-2005, 05:45 AM

Okay, that site is hilarious!

greenemama · 06-17-2005, 05:57 AM

i

xati-guy!

BG has these seminars that you go to -- the basic and the advanced. they deal with learning basic life principles -- how to live a successful Christian life. families who want to go further homeschool enrolled in ATI. BG's institute provides "wisdom booklets" when you're enrolled. some hard-core ATI people homeschool using *only* the wisdom booklets. some of the stuff in the WBs are good -- interesting biographies, etc. for the most part there's a lot of wacky stuff. especially the theology/bible sections.

BG is against college, in favor of apprenticeship. sadly, many people were hoping BG would help their children get apprenticeships and have careers (the boys) that could support families (enormous families as BG is anti birth control). obviously, BG could not get apprenticeships for every ATI boy so there are many guys in their 30s just going to college now.

BG is one of the forerunners of the modern courtship movement. at his headquarters, contact with members of the opposite sex can be considered "dating" if those observing think there's something more than talking going on. very subjective.

a lot of punitive stuff has gone on at some of the "training centers" around the country. there are stories about rebellious teens being locked in their rooms and forced to fast.

there is a huge emphasis on godly outward appearance=godly heart.

steer clear!

TulipMama · 06-17-2005, 06:06 AM

Great summary, Mollie.

Most ATIA/Gothard families are very well-intentioned and love the Lord dearly.

However, these teachings lead to a lot of exclusivity, isolationism and legalism. My family was never involved with ATIA, but many in our close circle of friends were.

A lot of emphasis is placed on "authority" and the "umbrella of protection." Many (if not most or all) of Bill Gothard's "principles" come from poor exegesis and sloppy hermeneutics.

This yahoo group discusses Bill Gothard: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gothard_discussion/

J3K · 06-17-2005, 08:47 AM

forgive me if I'm makin light of it....

I am the only one that is reminded of John Lithgow in Footloose when reading about Gothard ?

ChristmasGirl · 06-17-2005, 09:01 AM

i like xati-guy too. it's ironic because a lot of his blogs remind me a lot of the controlling ministry we were with, too many similarities...i remember one of his (factitious but funny) blogs about showing up for Thanksgiving Dinner and everyone being informed that they were fasting that day...we had several of those types of "required/forced fasting" experiences so I could relate to that

my experience is that the ministry we served with required us to go to Bill Gothard seminars during our training. so i've sat thru my share of seminars (and Bill's lovely "chalk talks"

). Our ministry used the umbrella of protection teachings in a manipulative way, and during our training i remember being hesitant to even talk to any of the single men in our group for fear of my intentions being misunderstood by leadership

IMO his teachings can place a heavy load upon one, and can slowly suck the joy of your salvation out of you.

And i don't care for how formula-istic (is that a word?) his teachings are. Every topic is presented as "7 steps to this" "10 steps of forgiveness" etc. etc. etc.

2sunshines · 06-17-2005, 09:19 AM

I've had a little bit of contact with BG. I went to his Basic Institute as a teenager and although I generally do not agree with his teaching, I did take some good info from them. I definitely do not recommend him though. A lot of wacky things... Very legalistic.

I was browsing his website that someone linked to and found this: http://billgothard.com/bill/topics/circumcision/ The benefits of circumcism. It's one of his "key topics." What??? I mean, he has it up there, right next to hermeneutics, grace and faith, umbrella authority and courtship...

Strange...

I just find it odd that a "spritual" leader is trying to make a medical commentary (not to mention not medically sound), and then not only that, but place it as one of the key topics...

ChristmasGirl · 06-17-2005, 09:38 AM

Another thing that bothered me was being asked to vow (after each teaching in his seminars) to follow his teachings. I regret having done this as an uniformed 18 yo. It's like he expects you to take them as gospel word, otherwise he would give time for you to examine and hold His teachings up to the Word before asking you to vow before God.

Quote:

Gothard is always asking his audience to make vows before God and then to raise their hands to acknowledge the vow. These vows range everywhere from promising to God that you will read the Bible for at least five minutes each day, to vowing not to get married without your parents’ authorization. You are given pages in your notebook where you can sign your name acknowledging each vow in writing as a sort of pact between you and God.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/largerhope/Gothard.htm

2sunshines · 06-17-2005, 09:40 AM

I also see that Gothard has a statement on vaccinations? Although it doesn't say what it is. Bulletin 17: http://iblp.org/iblp/discipleship/mt...series1/16-20/

Our of curosity, does anyone know? I'm sure it's mainstream medical advice, but I'm curious...

CelticJourney · 06-17-2005, 03:14 PM

He's anti-adoption, stating that you are taking on the sins of the child's father and will suffer from them.

06-17-2005, 04:04 PM

I have the booklet. He's very politically correct, and gives a pretty good picture on how the immune system works, the vaccinations themselves, etc. He is all for Biblical cleanliness (including all the OT verses about isolation, etc., like in Leviticus), but he also says that the need for vaccinations must be "carefully evaluated". (personal choice?) "Ask God for wisdom", "Be fully informed", "Know the law", "Evaluate each vaccination", "Consider half-doses" (he says, usually 90% as effective), "Apply for exemption". He says it is "essential" to teach children the laws and rules of cleanliness as regards Leviticus.

"The real reason, however, is not whether immunization will eradicate disease. It will not. Disease is the result of the Fall. The real issue is where we choose to put our trust and where we look for instruction to make informed choices about immunization". Basic CARE Bulletin 17, Medical Training Institute of America.

Yes, I've gone to the seminars. More than once. I have the first 20 "Basic Care Bulletins", including the one on infertility and birth control, miscarriages, circumcision, etc.

Katigre · 06-19-2005, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elcollins

He's anti-adoption, stating that you are taking on the sins of the child's father and will suffer from them.

Whoa, that's really out there. Can someone find me a reference for this?

CelticJourney · 06-20-2005, 05:59 AM

Quote:

He's anti-adoption, stating that you are taking on the sins of the child's father and will suffer from them.

Whoa, that's really out there. Can someone find me a reference for this?

It's been a long time since I read it, but I am 90% sure it was on their web site.

06-16-2005, 08:56 PM	#1
Katigre Rose Garden Why thank you, it is naturally blue... Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 21,278	Explain Gothard to me please... I see him referred to around the boards, i've heard very conservative/fundamentalist/separatist people mention liking him, and i know he is somehow big in the courtship/betrothal subculture (i got the feeling he was one of the first ones to espouse it way back when), but i don't have a good handle on his specific teachings, beliefs, issues, etc... Can anyone give me a brief summary? And what does "ATI" stand for? (i've seen that referenced as a conference he puts on or something?)

06-16-2005, 09:02 PM	#2
MarynMunchkins Deactivated Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 38,127	Re: Explain Gothard to me please... http://billgothard.com/bill/ I've tried to block out most of the memories of my experience at his stupid conferences, but he's very um...conservative, for lack of a better word. I do remember that he teaches that any music with drums or electric guitar is inherently evil and praises Satan. Guess God only likes organ music...:P

06-16-2005, 10:11 PM	#3
UltraMother Rose Garden Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 4,003	Re: Explain Gothard to me please... No, you need to stick to acapella hymns to be really safe . ATI stands for Advanced Training Institute. It's Gothard's next step for those who have really liked his seminars and want to follow him further. He believes himself to be quite an authority on how to raise children, but in truth, he's never even married, let alone had kids of his own. I like what this guy has to say, but he mentions lots of catch phrases and inside jokes that might leave you scratching your head. __________________ Babies-they just grow on you. Shop for yarn and spindles at my etsy!

06-17-2005, 05:45 AM	#4
MarynMunchkins Deactivated Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 38,127	Re: Explain Gothard to me please... Okay, that site is hilarious!

06-17-2005, 05:57 AM	#5
greenemama Deactivated Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 4,206	Re: Explain Gothard to me please... i xati-guy! BG has these seminars that you go to -- the basic and the advanced. they deal with learning basic life principles -- how to live a successful Christian life. families who want to go further homeschool enrolled in ATI. BG's institute provides "wisdom booklets" when you're enrolled. some hard-core ATI people homeschool using only the wisdom booklets. some of the stuff in the WBs are good -- interesting biographies, etc. for the most part there's a lot of wacky stuff. especially the theology/bible sections. BG is against college, in favor of apprenticeship. sadly, many people were hoping BG would help their children get apprenticeships and have careers (the boys) that could support families (enormous families as BG is anti birth control). obviously, BG could not get apprenticeships for every ATI boy so there are many guys in their 30s just going to college now. BG is one of the forerunners of the modern courtship movement. at his headquarters, contact with members of the opposite sex can be considered "dating" if those observing think there's something more than talking going on. very subjective. a lot of punitive stuff has gone on at some of the "training centers" around the country. there are stories about rebellious teens being locked in their rooms and forced to fast. there is a huge emphasis on godly outward appearance=godly heart. steer clear!

06-17-2005, 06:06 AM	#6
TulipMama Deactivated Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,796	Re: Explain Gothard to me please... Great summary, Mollie. Most ATIA/Gothard families are very well-intentioned and love the Lord dearly. However, these teachings lead to a lot of exclusivity, isolationism and legalism. My family was never involved with ATIA, but many in our close circle of friends were. A lot of emphasis is placed on "authority" and the "umbrella of protection." Many (if not most or all) of Bill Gothard's "principles" come from poor exegesis and sloppy hermeneutics. This yahoo group discusses Bill Gothard: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gothard_discussion/

06-17-2005, 08:47 AM	#7
J3K Deactivated Hi ! I'm Myrtle. I like to pretend I'm an R.O.U.S. Join Date: May 2005 Location: under the cat Posts: 17,112	Re: Explain Gothard to me please... forgive me if I'm makin light of it.... I am the only one that is reminded of John Lithgow in Footloose when reading about Gothard ?

06-17-2005, 09:01 AM	#8
ChristmasGirl Rose Garden love~joy~peace Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 9,343	Re: Explain Gothard to me please... i like xati-guy too. it's ironic because a lot of his blogs remind me a lot of the controlling ministry we were with, too many similarities...i remember one of his (factitious but funny) blogs about showing up for Thanksgiving Dinner and everyone being informed that they were fasting that day...we had several of those types of "required/forced fasting" experiences so I could relate to that my experience is that the ministry we served with required us to go to Bill Gothard seminars during our training. so i've sat thru my share of seminars (and Bill's lovely "chalk talks" ). Our ministry used the umbrella of protection teachings in a manipulative way, and during our training i remember being hesitant to even talk to any of the single men in our group for fear of my intentions being misunderstood by leadership IMO his teachings can place a heavy load upon one, and can slowly suck the joy of your salvation out of you. And i don't care for how formula-istic (is that a word?) his teachings are. Every topic is presented as "7 steps to this" "10 steps of forgiveness" etc. etc. etc. __________________ Warmly, Susie ISFJ & DYT 1 & Enneagram 9 ❀married to my sweetie for 26 years ❀mom to Lizzie 24 and Eli 20

06-17-2005, 09:19 AM	#9
2sunshines Moderator in Celebrations, Cloth Diapering & EC, Empty Arms, Prayer & Praise, and Swap n' Shop Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 27,024	Re: Explain Gothard to me please... I've had a little bit of contact with BG. I went to his Basic Institute as a teenager and although I generally do not agree with his teaching, I did take some good info from them. I definitely do not recommend him though. A lot of wacky things... Very legalistic. I was browsing his website that someone linked to and found this: http://billgothard.com/bill/topics/circumcision/ The benefits of circumcism. It's one of his "key topics." What??? I mean, he has it up there, right next to hermeneutics, grace and faith, umbrella authority and courtship... Strange... I just find it odd that a "spritual" leader is trying to make a medical commentary (not to mention not medically sound), and then not only that, but place it as one of the key topics... __________________ married 25 years mom to two young adults (23 and 20) and two teens (17 and 15)

06-17-2005, 09:40 AM	#11
2sunshines Moderator in Celebrations, Cloth Diapering & EC, Empty Arms, Prayer & Praise, and Swap n' Shop Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 27,024	Re: Explain Gothard to me please... I also see that Gothard has a statement on vaccinations? Although it doesn't say what it is. Bulletin 17: http://iblp.org/iblp/discipleship/mt...series1/16-20/ Our of curosity, does anyone know? I'm sure it's mainstream medical advice, but I'm curious... __________________ married 25 years mom to two young adults (23 and 20) and two teens (17 and 15)

06-17-2005, 03:14 PM	#12
CelticJourney Administrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 34,561	Re: Explain Gothard to me please... He's anti-adoption, stating that you are taking on the sins of the child's father and will suffer from them. __________________ Elizabeth "Truth without love is divisive and hurtful & love without truth is anemic"--Pastor Estep Arise, cry out in the night...pour out your heart like water in the presence of the Lord; Lift up your hands to him for the lives of your children..; Lamentations 2:19

06-17-2005, 04:04 PM	#13
Chris3jam Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Explain Gothard to me please... I have the booklet. He's very politically correct, and gives a pretty good picture on how the immune system works, the vaccinations themselves, etc. He is all for Biblical cleanliness (including all the OT verses about isolation, etc., like in Leviticus), but he also says that the need for vaccinations must be "carefully evaluated". (personal choice?) "Ask God for wisdom", "Be fully informed", "Know the law", "Evaluate each vaccination", "Consider half-doses" (he says, usually 90% as effective), "Apply for exemption". He says it is "essential" to teach children the laws and rules of cleanliness as regards Leviticus. "The real reason, however, is not whether immunization will eradicate disease. It will not. Disease is the result of the Fall. The real issue is where we choose to put our trust and where we look for instruction to make informed choices about immunization". Basic CARE Bulletin 17, Medical Training Institute of America. Yes, I've gone to the seminars. More than once. I have the first 20 "Basic Care Bulletins", including the one on infertility and birth control, miscarriages, circumcision, etc.

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