I need to say a few things about the idea of defiance

[ArmsOfLove]

Because this seems to be a sticking point for some moms here, especially new moms learning more about GBD. I said in another thread that defiance means they want something at least as much as you do. That's it in a nutshell. But there's more

I want to explain why I believe the idea of "defiance" or "willfull defiance" is so big a deal in the parenting world and why it's not even an issue in my home.

Here's the thing--inherently we know that punishments aren't fair or kind. We know that they shouldn't be given for accidents. And parents often feel badly about giving them. So the punitive community has distilled things down to punishments being needed for defiance, especially willfull defiance (the worst kind of defiance ). And defiance is basically expressed as "not an accident", "the child knew what they were doing", "I'd already told them and they understood", or "They know." But this is a LOT to assume of a toddler! Developmentally they lack all logic--they are not thinking about things the way you are, they have poor impulse control, little self control, and are driven less by will and more by whim.

Ironically, some of the most punitive parents I know are the best at making excuses for their children--they really don't want to spank or punish so they can warp reality so that everything is an accident. This means they don't have to spank for this thing. One of the most punitive parents I've known would apologize for her child's elbow accidentally slamming into my child's head while her child ran past him at park speeds and veered acrsoss to room to slam into him while my child sat on the floor playing with legos But if it's defiance/willfull defiance then you aren't allowed to make excuses for those things. They *need* a punishment.

As far as I'm concerned, I could honestly care less if something is defiance or willfull defiance or ignorance or an accident or sleepwalking I respond the same way. I don't have to play the game of discerning intent, I assign a positive one because it makes my life more pleasant. And if I see over time that there is some kind of maturity or character issue then I address it during character training. We might read verses and talk about issues and read Aesop's fables or fairy tales with morals, etc. IOW, I *disciple* them in that area. But as far as the action in question goes, if my child spills their bowl of cereal then whether it's done out of anger that I won't give them a cookie, because they were done, or because it slipped, I say, "Uh Oh! Food does not belong on the floor. Here, take this towel and help mommy clean it up." They made a mess, they are going to help clean it up. If they are too upset then I will stop and comfort them and then we will clean it up.

So GBD can be both harder and easier than punishing. Harder, because you need to be creative and tuned in and learn how to work with your child. Easier because you don't have to try and be a mind or heart reader.

[chelsea]

Thanks, that has cleared up a lot of confusion for me. This part stuck out especially:

As far as I'm concerned, I could honestly care less if something is defiance or willfull defiance or ignorance or an accident or sleepwalking I respond the same way.

I was thinking that to "teach" a child to respond more appropriately, you needed to discern their intent. This gives me a new angle on how I think about things.

[Embracing Grace]

This was very helpful, thanks!

Excellent post Crystal. I always enjoy the way you can distill an issue into something clear and easy to think through. Thank you.

Thanks, this has been coming up a lot for me lately because they just did a Dobson study at our church.........I really needed that clarification and reminder.

in the instance of the spilled cereal..........I would have thought the examples that you gave would not have been defiance either. BUT what about when I say "your cereal bowl goes on the table" and the child (now I am not meaning a toddler, like my 4yo) picks up the bowl and dumps it out on the floor..........what then? I mean I would still give them a towel and would expect him to help clean it up, but should that "attitude" (I hate to use that word) be dealt with?

[SewingGreenMama]

Originally Posted by akmyilee

Thanks, this has been coming up a lot for me lately because they just did a Dobson study at our church.........I really needed that clarification and reminder.

in the instance of the spilled cereal..........I would have thought the examples that you gave would not have been defiance either. BUT what about when I say "your cereal bowl goes on the table" and the child (now I am not meaning a toddler, like my 4yo) picks up the bowl and dumps it out on the floor..........what then? I mean I would still give them a towel and would expect him to help clean it up, but should that "attitude" (I hate to use that word) be dealt with?

I've discovered that when my son deliberately disobeyed me before he could talk it was to make sure the rule still applied, that it was true with both hands, etc, not defiance, just exploring the boundaries to fully understand them, or such a total single minded NEED to know, touch, explore the particular thing they are unable to stop and need serious distraction.
Now that he is older when he is defient I have discovered it is usually because I've either not been consistent or I have treated him unjustly and he is defiant and uncooperative out of hurt and anger, that is MY fault, it doesn't excuse him but it does help me understand, then I step forward and apologize, re-establish boundaries etc and almost immediately he is a different child. I'm modeling correct behavior and addressed the true situation, his defiance was a helpless, hurt, and/or confused child's reaction to confusing boundaries/authority and/or unjustness.

[katiekind]

I've discovered that when my son deliberately disobeyed me before he could talk it was to make sure the rule still applied, that it was true with both hands, etc

My scientific/engineer/techie-minded son was like that as a tiny tot.

[Tandem mama]

For my oldest, I've noticed "defiance" during stress times and age changes. I think the age changes may be a hormonal shift. When she feels out of control, she becomes oppositional and fights me for control over everything going on in our home. We keep our boundaries but make space for extra choice making for her during those times. We try to allow her to feel more in control without becoming permissive and losing all boundaries. We reasses some of them to make sure they're necessary. Mostly we just wait the phase out.

[SewingGreenMama]

Originally Posted by katiekind

My scientific/engineer/techie-minded son was like that as a tiny tot.

Good to know my techno kid isn't the only one.

[heartofjoy]

I know I've been learning and growing in grace-based discipline for just a little over a year, but the idea of defiance had to get thrown out the window pretty early on. You are so right, and I love how you expresed yourself! A defiant act by my child makes no difference in how I handle a situation, except I may feel the need to address other issues. Either character issues, or more likely in my home, organic issues. Defiance is a cue to me to start looking at areas in my kids lives that need my intervention: food, bedtimes, interaction, downtime, or activity.

Originally Posted by akmyilee

I mean I would still give them a towel and would expect him to help clean it up, but should that "attitude" (I hate to use that word) be dealt with?

Not Crystal, obviously, but I have $.02, as always, if you're interested.

I think about adult Christians I have discipled or shepherded in the past. If there's an attitude one day, we would probably overlook it. If there's an ongoing attitude problem, well, we would lovingly address that with our Christian sister, because that's a character issue that God probably wants to deal with, right?

Piggybacking on what Crystal said, if it's a character issue we'd deal with it, the child and I together. Crystal mentioned "character training"; I've never quite used that term but you betcha if Jody's in a spate where he's lying a lot, we're not only dealing with the behaviors as they happen, we're having Bible class regarding lying, we're having discussions of all types, etc.

I have to agree with Crystal that again, it's about what I'm feeling when the kid does it, if I'm calling it defiance, and that's not fair to the kid because it's not consistent. Kid dumps milk accidentally, I'm annoyed but that's about it, it's not his fault, it was an accident. Kid dumps milk while looking me in the eye after I told him to be careful, I'm a little more than annoyed. On a bad day, I'm outraged! But we've still got the same problem - there's milk on the floor! Needs to be cleaned up! If I start telling myself "he's willful, he's defiant, he did it just to get my goat," well all that assigning of intent does nothing more than fuel that outrage I'm feeling and continue to make me feel like he needs to be punished, that I need to make him feel sorry, whatever. Nothing helpful there.

That's why it's so helpful to just practice assigning benign intent (age-expected, just seeing what would happen, etc.) to keep my blood from boiling, and deal with the behavior, not the intent. And if he's spilling milk every day, he might not get milk for a while, or he might have to drink it on the porch, or only get a cup with a lid, or any number of a million ways to address the behavior, who cares about the intent, trying to figure out his intent just gets me mad and keeps me mad and keeps me from being the kind of gentle parent I want to be.

And if it's a character issue, we deal with it overall, when we deal with character issues. Not just related to the specific behavior (though I might use the behavior or one like it as an example when we're discussing it in a calm moment) but overall. If there's a character issue that God wants addressed, God doesn't just, in my experience, use one type of behavior to get at it. It starts popping out all over the place and it becomes clear that's what's to be addressed next. Not just in my kids, in me, too!

Sorry that was so wordy - I'll go in later and try to cut some of it down! LOL!

i've notice myself that whenever DD "defies" me i think she is trying to see if i'll be consistent in my response. i.e. if she throws something at me, i always tell her to pick it up and hand it to me nicely. now instead of immediately throwing something, she rears back her arm as if to throw and pauses a moment to see if i'll remind her to be gentle. when i do, she hands it to me nicely lol

[snlmama]

Originally Posted by katirana

i've notice myself that whenever DD "defies" me i think she is trying to see if i'll be consistent in my response. i.e. if she throws something at me, i always tell her to pick it up and hand it to me nicely. now instead of immediately throwing something, she rears back her arm as if to throw and pauses a moment to see if i'll remind her to be gentle. when i do, she hands it to me nicely lol

To add to that, something that's always stuck w/ me and probably helped me drop thinking in terms of defiance is reading something by Dr. Sears (I htink...) when my oldest was really young. A young child who keeps going back to what they're told not to touch isn't typically being "defiant" or even testing the *parent*. They're testing the rule. They're not thinking: "She said I can't touch it, but I'll show her." They're thinking: "OK, I can't touch the fireplace w/ my hand. What about one finger?... Nope.... what about my foot?....Nope....What about the other hand?....Nope. What about my head?.....Nope. Can I use this toy I'm holding to touch it?....Well, what about the other corner. Can I touch that?" is what's really going thru their mind. That's exactly what my kids did. And I'd hear over and over "oh, he's testing *you*. You need to show him who's boss.." But, no, having read that I could see it - he wasn't testing *me* and it wasn't *defiance*. They were testing the rule. What exactly do you mean by don't touch it?

Kinda silly, but still see this w/ my 7 year old except it's very obvious now what he's doing b/c he'll *ask* instead of doing it. "Mommy, you said we can't color in the living room. What about if we use colored pencils instead of crayons or markers?... Well then, can I draw w/ a pen on that paper if I sit on the floor instead of the couch?...What about if I bring the little table in and do it on that?....Well, can I move the kitchen chair to the very edge of the kitchen like *this* and color on a paper on the chair while I watch TV?...." But, now I *really* see what he's doing. It's not defiance. It's a need to very very specifically define the rule. Not all children have this need, but many do.

So, taken that way, "defiant" 1, 2 and 3 year olds aren't really defiant or naughty. They're being little problem solvers....

[Whirlwind]

Thanks, that is a very helpful way of looking at things (that kids may be testing the rule for greater understanding, rather than testing a parent for "weakness"). I'll try to tuck that info in the back of my mind somewhere for any future frustrating moments.

I can understand with little children. But, what about older kids? Like. . .8 and 9 and 10? The ones that you can actually see thinking about it. . . and then they decide that they'll do it anyway. You can *see* the little wheels turning. The ones that say, "But I wanted to do it anyway, and so I did!" I understand that they wanted to do it. . . but it was *wrong*!