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Unprepared for Parenting (Ezzos, Pearls, Etc.) *Public* Support and information for those affected by the Ezzos, the Pearls, and other punitive and adversarial methods of child-rearing.
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Old 01-15-2012, 01:48 PM   #16
BarefootBetsy
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Default Re: Common sense and intuition

I haven't heard that about "common sense" but I have heard that because we live in a fallen world, our motherly instincts (about wanting our babies with us, and responding to their cries) are also fallen and warped and sinful

And coming from a culture where we're taught that our instincts and intuitions are wrong... well... how can we then argue that people should somehow just know to pay attention to those things? Our culture does not value innate knowledge much at all, from what I can tell. Especially not the innate knowledge of women/mothers...
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Old 01-15-2012, 01:55 PM   #17
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Default Re: Common sense and intuition

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Originally Posted by forty-two View Post
I think you're right, that confidence is a big thing. It would take a lot more to get someone who trusts their own judgement (in general or on a given issue) to doubt it than someone who, for whatever reason, didn't feel very confident about their judgement to start with.

Flexibility of mind might come into play, too - very confident people would be less likely to dismiss common sense or intuition because of outside influence, but they might be perfectly willing to ignore reality b/c it doesn't match what they very confidently think/feel ought to be the case .
That makes a lot sense. If you think that your judgement is sound, then you can take flack about your choices without backing down. The first part of the flexibility makes sense. But I don't follow the part about ignoring reality.

---------- Post added at 03:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:48 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarefootBetsy View Post
I haven't heard that about "common sense" but I have heard that because we live in a fallen world, our motherly instincts (about wanting our babies with us, and responding to their cries) are also fallen and warped and sinful

And coming from a culture where we're taught that our instincts and intuitions are wrong... well... how can we then argue that people should somehow just know to pay attention to those things? Our culture does not value innate knowledge much at all, from what I can tell. Especially not the innate knowledge of women/mothers...
Yet you just know when you hear God's voice calling you into something. Or that you are to marry someone. Or that you should jump onto whatever trend is of the moment.
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Old 01-15-2012, 02:06 PM   #18
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Default Re: Common sense and intuition

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Originally Posted by forty-two View Post
You're probably right that I don't really get Sensing types (I'm really trying, but I haven't found the right explanation yet, I guess). But there's a difference b/w being scared to go on a feeling and not even feeling it in the first place. You kind of confirmed my theory, in that they all said it was hard but necessary. That kind of means they felt an inclination to not do it - they just then dismissed it, b/c they were trained to distrust all feelings/instincts .
Not necessarily. It is also hard to have your kid get a necessary blood test when they are screaming and crying but that does not make it bad. It is hard to hear you child scream when in a carseat and you may wish you could just hold them instead. Doesn't make it wrong. It is even hard to have boundaries and not be permissive at times.

LOTS of things about parenting are hard but equally right. Feelings cannot dictate what is good or bad.



Quote:
I totally get the difficulty of having to retrain your "natural", go-to responses and thinking . I just really and truly don't get not feeling, at some level, at some point - whether you listen to them or not - that something about this is just not right . I get that a lifetime of believing that spanking is right would have you dismissing that feeling as wrong/misleading/Satan's-influence - you'd be pre-primed to ignore it. But it was still there, right?
NOPE. No feeling. Just statistics. I decided in AP/GBD based on observing both ways. I have no innate sense of good/bad right./wrong just the Law of God and then observable effects of that which is wrong that is NOT spelled out.

Quote:
I totally get not listening to your instincts when you've been taught all your life to distrust them . But that's still different from not feeling them in the first place .
Well, I was taught nothing. MY "instincts" were conditioned responses to how I was raised and how I saw others raised. (Which had very little hitting and was mainstream but not ezzo) I still hate threads where people say over and over "What does your mama-gut tell you." I do not have one. But I have LOVE. And I know what is loving. I also know that sometimes what seems loving on the surface is not really. It is not loving to tell your kid you wont make them have a medical treatment just because they are scared and it will hurt. So I have to rest on the fact that I *Know* that this procedure being are exposed to many sources that say in the long run it IS loving and the bible says to do it, I was inclined to believe it. Fortunately I found GCM that had different IRL examples of what hitting does long term and how the lack of it can be very loving. Then I examined scriptures for myself.

ETA: I'm not trying to invalidate your experience , just trying to understand b/c it's really foreign to me .[/QUOTE]
Everything in my life is weighing facts. Feelings for me are just emotions. And I likely do not understand intuituion. TO ME it seems unreliable at best and superstitious at worst. I know for Ns that is not true. But I am not an N at all. Therefore I cannot function as one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by klpmommy View Post
am i the only one who was told that Christians were not supposed to be "common" so "common sense" wasn't applicable to us? I didn't become a Christian until I was an adult.
I was told that sort of. That sometimes what we do is counterintuitive BECAUSE our hearts are decietful and we need to be above them. Therefore mysogeny, inequality, and hitting your kids was HIGHER than those lovey-gooey unbelievers with their girl power and "permissiveness" will be proven wrong in the end.
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Old 01-15-2012, 02:11 PM   #19
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Default Re: Common sense and intuition

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarefootBetsy View Post
I haven't heard that about "common sense" but I have heard that because we live in a fallen world, our motherly instincts (about wanting our babies with us, and responding to their cries) are also fallen and warped and sinful

And coming from a culture where we're taught that our instincts and intuitions are wrong... well... how can we then argue that people should somehow just know to pay attention to those things? Our culture does not value innate knowledge much at all, from what I can tell. Especially not the innate knowledge of women/mothers...
I agree that our instincts are warped by sin - they are shaped by fallen people living in a fallen world, of course they are . But so's our reason and emotions and will and we still use those (although people do throw out one or more of those, too, in the name of "sinful"). Yes, our instincts are not perfect - but *nothing* about anything in the world is perfect, it's all flawed b/c of the fall. But like the world, our reason and emotions and will and instincts still more or less work (and thank goodness ). But I've never seen a convincing argument for why we should trust sweet reason instead of our instincts . They are both equally likely to go wrong.

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Originally Posted by rjy9343 View Post
That makes a lot sense. If you think that your judgement is sound, then you can take flack about your choices without backing down. The first part of the flexibility makes sense. But I don't follow the part about ignoring reality.
Yeah, it's not so much ignoring reality as it is the "more cowbell" approach to problem solving - if something isn't working, the *only* possible reason is that you aren't doing it right/enough . The idea that it might possibly be the wrong approach is not an option .
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Old 01-15-2012, 02:19 PM   #20
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Default Re: Common sense and intuition

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Originally Posted by forty-two View Post
In some ways, I think of common sense being the S version of N's intuition . One's coming from inside you, the other's coming more from outside you - explicitly the collected common wisdom of your culture (overlaid on humanity's collective wisdom). Now I don't really get the S thing at all, but my mom's an S and she's very common sense-y, and it prevents her from being taken in in the same way that my intuition, my inner knowing, protects me. Both of them are, imo, a combo of nature/nurture. And the real issue in both cases is having them properly calibrated, as well as healthy balance in how to use it - trust it, but not uncritically, just as you shouldn't trust others' judgement uncritically.

---------- Post added at 02:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:59 PM ----------



See, I'm not sure it's *just* a function of having intuition . My mom's a very S person, also mainstream punitive, and very common sense-y. And when I was a baby, the prevailing expert opinion was 4 hrs b/w feeds, and that the baby "can't" be hungry before then, and if you just let them cry when they wake up early, they'll go back to sleep. But I wanted feeding every 2 hours . And Mom had no trouble basically saying that the "experts" had never met me, that I gave clear evidence that I would cry the entire 2hrs until I was finally fed, and the sensible thing was to feed me when I wanted to be fed . There was no "knowing" or anything, just the common sense analysis that reality was disagreeing with the experts, and the experts' reasoning was specious compared to the evidence of her own eyes.
I agree with you. And in the here and now, if I have evidence that what I am doing is better than what you tell me, I am going to do it my way. But for chidl-rearing, there is the longitudinal aspect. So the only time I would go against Dobson, was when I had proof from someone who had grown (or at least older) kids that doing it another was better. It was not confidence at all, it was evidence. I knew it was ridiculous to try to do somethings with my baby as he was. But I had to be shown why it was OK not to be punitive. Because "common sense" is sensing that which is common. If it is common to do X and that is all the evidence I have, it seems sensible. But as an S it is also easy for me to change if you can show me your way is better. Which obviously happened.

---------- Post added at 01:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by forty-two View Post
I agree that our instincts are warped by sin - they are shaped by fallen people living in a fallen world, of course they are . But so's our reason and emotions and will and we still use those (although people do throw out one or more of those, too, in the name of "sinful"). Yes, our instincts are not perfect - but *nothing* about anything in the world is perfect, it's all flawed b/c of the fall. But like the world, our reason and emotions and will and instincts still more or less work (and thank goodness ). But I've never seen a convincing argument for why we should trust sweet reason instead of our instincts . They are both equally likely to go wrong.


Yeah, it's not so much ignoring reality as it is the "more cowbell" approach to problem solving - if something isn't working, the *only* possible reason is that you aren't doing it right/enough . The idea that it might possibly be the wrong approach is not an option .
Yes both our reason and our instincts can be wrong that is why iIn the church I was taugh to trust the Bible - not reason nor instinct. I still think that holds some weight so long as the bible even speacks on the issue. But , it took me a while to realize their interpretation may be wrong, or at least based on a scripture that is vague, and that some things are not addressed at all and just Christian culture.


For the rest, I am not going to stop using reason to guide me because I have almost NO intution. None. If I base my life on that I will stand still with a blank look for eternity What I have to do is keep testing my sources and retesting to show it was not a fluke. Basically the scientific method.
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Old 01-15-2012, 02:36 PM   #21
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Default Re: Common sense and intuition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heather Micaela View Post
Everything in my life is weighing facts. Feelings for me are just emotions. And I likely do not understand intuition. TO ME it seems unreliable at best and superstitious at worst. I know for Ns that is not true. But I am not an N at all. Therefore I cannot function as one.
Thank you for your response - I'm really trying to get a handle on what it means to be an S. I will say that to me intuition and feelings are *not* the same, not at all - interrelated, but totally distinct. It really is this *knowing*, that's separate from reason, from emotions, from will.

It seems to me that, at some level, we are all have access to the same input - we just process it differently . Would you say that you use common sense?

Quote:
I was told that sort of. That sometimes what we do is counterintuitive BECAUSE our hearts are decietful and we need to be above them. Therefore mysogeny, inequality, and hitting your kids was HIGHER than those lovey-gooey unbelievers with their girl power and "permissiveness" will be proven wrong in the end.
Yep, and there's the abuse inherent in that position .

---------- Post added at 03:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heather Micaela View Post
Not necessarily. It is also hard to have your kid get a necessary blood test when they are screaming and crying but that does not make it bad. It is hard to hear you child scream when in a carseat and you may wish you could just hold them instead. Doesn't make it wrong. It is even hard to have boundaries and not be permissive at times.

LOTS of things about parenting are hard but equally right. Feelings cannot dictate what is good or bad.
Yep, they are all hard because they involve causing pain to someone we love . That is *not* natural, that goes against the grain. The fact it's even necessary is due to the fall . Causing pain = bad.

To me a key difference is whether the pain is incidental - we'd avoid it if we could - or if the pain is integral to the process - like spanking, the *point* is to cause pain. If you took away the pain, you took away the point. And as causing pain = bad, anything in which deliberately inflicting pain is the point is just not justifiable .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heather Micaela View Post
Yes both our reason and our instincts can be wrong that is why iIn the church I was taugh to trust the Bible - not reason nor instinct. I still think that holds some weight so long as the bible even speacks on the issue. But , it took me a while to realize their interpretation may be wrong, or at least based on a scripture that is vague, and that some things are not addressed at all and just Christian culture.


For the rest, I am not going to stop using reason to guide me because I have almost NO intution. None. If I base my life on that I will stand still with a blank look for eternity What I have to do is keep testing my sources and retesting to show it was not a fluke. Basically the scientific method.
The thing with rely on nothing but the Bible, is that we have to get that input into us *somehow* - and all paths are flawed . Reason is often nominated (explicitly or implicitly) as being some more sanctified than the rest, but there's no Biblical reason to justify it .

Anyway, I don't see intuition as an alternative to reason; intuition more synthesizes the input from reason and emotions .
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Old 01-15-2012, 02:52 PM   #22
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Default Re: Common sense and intuition

I'm much more of a "weighing facts" sort of person as well I research everything to death and I tend to not go by "feelings" as a general rule. My T is extremely strong

However, it seemed incredibly flawed to me to discount motherly instincts. Especially when other mammals have them as well and, in their cases, those instincts are extremely important for their babies' safety and survival. There had to be a reason for these things - such as the fact that a lactating mother's body will let down milk when they hear a baby cry!

So... I researched to find the reasons behind the instincts and came to the (very logical, IMO) conclusion that there were good reasons behind them and that following those instincts was the correct thing for me to do.

I know that spanking never "felt" like a good thing to do (especially not on the receiving end - I've never actually dealt one out - and not even when I would think about spanking someone else), so I researched until I was confident that, logically-speaking, it wasn't. At least, not on a regular basis. It took me a little longer to come to the conclusion that hitting a child is never the best course of action even though sometimes it can seem to produce positive benefits and might seem like the only thing that can be done at the time (rather like in the Little House books where Laura whips that boy student when she was the school teacher).
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Old 01-15-2012, 03:02 PM   #23
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Default Re: Common sense and intuition

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarefootBetsy View Post
I'm much more of a "weighing facts" sort of person as well I research everything to death and I tend to not go by "feelings" as a general rule. My T is extremely strong

However, it seemed incredibly flawed to me to discount motherly instincts. Especially when other mammals have them as well and, in their cases, those instincts are extremely important for their babies' safety and survival. There had to be a reason for these things - such as the fact that a lactating mother's body will let down milk when they hear a baby cry!

So... I researched to find the reasons behind the instincts and came to the (very logical, IMO) conclusion that there were good reasons behind them and that following those instincts was the correct thing for me to do.

I know that spanking never "felt" like a good thing to do (especially not on the receiving end - I've never actually dealt one out - and not even when I would think about spanking someone else), so I researched until I was confident that, logically-speaking, it wasn't. At least, not on a regular basis. It took me a little longer to come to the conclusion that hitting a child is never the best course of action even though sometimes it can seem to produce positive benefits and might seem like the only thing that can be done at the time (rather like in the Little House books where Laura whips that boy student when she was the school teacher).
I relate to this - my intuition is pretty thinking driven, too .
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Old 01-15-2012, 03:36 PM   #24
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Default Re: Common sense and intuition

Quote:
Originally Posted by forty-two View Post
Thank you for your response - I'm really trying to get a handle on what it means to be an S. I will say that to me intuition and feelings are *not* the same, not at all - interrelated, but totally distinct. It really is this *knowing*, that's separate from reason, from emotions, from will.

It seems to me that, at some level, we are all have access to the same input - we just process it differently . Would you say that you use common sense?
I have access to whatever is in my enviornment. Many S's have N in them but not primary. I score almost none. NONE. Whatever N is I do not have it at all. I understand it is not feelings and I can spit back out your explanation to someone who is asking. But it is like a Deaf person trying to explain hearing. I do not get it because I do not experience it.

Common sense to me is the same as wisdom. It is things people have told me + things I have observed +things I have experienced. Then I apply them to similar situations. It is not some (for lack of a better word) feeling.


Quote:
Yep, they are all hard because they involve causing pain to someone we love . That is *not* natural, that goes against the grain. The fact it's even necessary is due to the fall . Causing pain = bad.

To me a key difference is whether the pain is incidental - we'd avoid it if we could - or if the pain is integral to the process - like spanking, the *point* is to cause pain. If you took away the pain, you took away the point. And as causing pain = bad, anything in which deliberately inflicting pain is the point is just not justifiable .
Well of course. But some pain IS good. A little burn when you excercise shows your muscles are working. Pain in childbearing can be spun ver positively. And so since we know babies communicate through cryinng - when one tells you all they are saying when they CIO is "i'm tired" and not to worry - it is easy to believe untill you get enough evidence otherwise.


Quote:
The thing with rely on nothing but the Bible, is that we have to get that input into us *somehow* - and all paths are flawed . Reason is often nominated (explicitly or implicitly) as being some more sanctified than the rest, but there's no Biblical reason to justify it .
Well I do not rely on noting but the Bible and disagree with that stance. I was just saying this was what I was taught. The Bible is stll foundational to how I live though. I just allow for various interpretations and do my best not to read it through our cluture. For the rest I use reason because that is who I am. I do not distrust the intuition of others, jsut like I hope my Deaf freind believes me that I hear a fire alarm even if she doesn't hear it. But just as she is going to be basing her perception on what she sees and feels(Vibration/tactile not emotion) and other sense, I am going to base my understanding on what I can take in via 5 senses. I am glad when intuition comes in to play because sometimes sensing takes longer. My friend might have to waite to see or smell the smoke if I am not there.

Quote:
Anyway, I don't see intuition as an alternative to reason; intuition more synthesizes the input from reason and emotions .
I also know an N can be logical and a S can be illogical. BUt I can no longer be intuitive than my Deaf freind can hear.

[/QUOTE]
But that does mean that suggestions to go with what your mommy gut tells you make no sense to me. What I did is imagine what I would do if I was raising my kid with no example or esperts. That means I would not have the benefit of longitudinal studies and have to base it on what I know here and now. The second thing I do is use all of human history and not just the industrial era as my guide. What have MOST moms done?

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Originally Posted by BarefootBetsy View Post
I'm much more of a "weighing facts" sort of person as well I research everything to death and I tend to not go by "feelings" as a general rule. My T is extremely strong

However, it seemed incredibly flawed to me to discount motherly instincts. Especially when other mammals have them as well and, in their cases, those instincts are extremely important for their babies' safety and survival. There had to be a reason for these things - such as the fact that a lactating mother's body will let down milk when they hear a baby cry!

So... I researched to find the reasons behind the instincts and came to the (very logical, IMO) conclusion that there were good reasons behind them and that following those instincts was the correct thing for me to do.

I know that spanking never "felt" like a good thing to do (especially not on the receiving end - I've never actually dealt one out - and not even when I would think about spanking someone else), so I researched until I was confident that, logically-speaking, it wasn't. At least, not on a regular basis. It took me a little longer to come to the conclusion that hitting a child is never the best course of action even though sometimes it can seem to produce positive benefits and might seem like the only thing that can be done at the time (rather like in the Little House books where Laura whips that boy student when she was the school teacher).

My instinct is to feed on demand because otherwise I leak and to come when they are crying and protect them from outside harm. But I also have an overdelevoped fight or flight instinct (Studies show this is common with ADHD) that makes me whant to either hit, run, or yell when hurt or wronged. And to be a good mother I actually have to go AGANIST instinct in that aspect. And I was never spanked that I can recall so I do not have that experience to base my decisions on.
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Old 01-15-2012, 04:12 PM   #25
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Default Re: Common sense and intuition

I think that hitting is an instinct as well - in the heat of the moment, at least. Babies demonstrate that instinct really early on. But that's an instinct that I rejected ultimately because of my research, but also because (when one isn't in the heat of the moment), it seems to be a wrong thing to do. At least, I've been taught my entire life that hitting others is wrong, so why should there be an exception only for parents to hit tiny little children?

Does that make any sense? I'm not sure if it does or not It did in my head before I typed it out!
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Old 01-15-2012, 04:19 PM   #26
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Default Re: Common sense and intuition

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Old 01-15-2012, 09:35 PM   #27
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Default Re: Common sense and intuition

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Originally Posted by BarefootBetsy View Post
I think that hitting is an instinct as well - in the heat of the moment, at least. Babies demonstrate that instinct really early on. But that's an instinct that I rejected ultimately because of my research, but also because (when one isn't in the heat of the moment), it seems to be a wrong thing to do. At least, I've been taught my entire life that hitting others is wrong, so why should there be an exception only for parents to hit tiny little children?

Does that make any sense? I'm not sure if it does or not It did in my head before I typed it out!
Yes it makes sense. For me I was told never to pick on people yonger than me. Hitting your children goes against that. But the instinct to hit is as real as the instinct to protect. And if I am injured (Even accidently) by my child, I do raise my hand at first - though my brain kicks in and stops me
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Old 01-16-2012, 12:31 AM   #28
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Default Re: Common sense and intuition

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarefootBetsy View Post
I think that hitting is an instinct as well - in the heat of the moment, at least. Babies demonstrate that instinct really early on. But that's an instinct that I rejected ultimately because of my research, but also because (when one isn't in the heat of the moment), it seems to be a wrong thing to do. At least, I've been taught my entire life that hitting others is wrong, so why should there be an exception only for parents to hit tiny little children?

Does that make any sense? I'm not sure if it does or not It did in my head before I typed it out!

It's an instinct base on emotions of fear, anger, revenge, and self-protection. Not things I want to be basing my parenting on.
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Old 01-16-2012, 06:44 AM   #29
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Default Re: Common sense and intuition

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Originally Posted by klpmommy View Post
am i the only one who was told that Christians were not supposed to be "common" so "common sense" wasn't applicable to us? I didn't become a Christian until I was an adult.
i became a christian as an adult..i just thought things that seemed intuitive to me- must be warped by sin. so as a new christian..and having my 2nd baby as a christian.. i had a hard time trusting instincts.
i read BW w/ my 2nd. but he wasnt especially needy so i lightly implemented some stuff. with the 3rd- i went full on. we still suffer from that
i knew a very AP family at church- and their kid was Hell on wheeles.
( the pastor gave them the same "discipline" book he gave me, and they put it into action. he did change)

thus further supporting the Ezzo thinking.
my eyes werent opened till my 4th. when i was finally able to breastfeed. it changed everything thats when "instinct" smacked me in the face..and i couldnt supress it.. so i start with feelings..then go after facts to prove or disprove ( which i still need to be careful with)

i dont know how women breastfeed and still do Ezzo..wow. i just dont understand. the internal conflict that must be raging

---------- Post added at 05:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:22 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by forty-two View Post
Flexibility of mind might come into play, too - very confident people would be less likely to dismiss common sense or intuition because of outside influence, but they might be perfectly willing to ignore reality b/c it doesn't match what they very confidently think/feel ought to be the case .
oi. ..this is my husband. all.the.way. ..
what MB personality type is that?

back to your regularly scheduled program
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Old 01-16-2012, 07:15 AM   #30
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Default Re: Common sense and intuition

"People should just use their common sense and intuition to know when to stop doing, or not use something. Chew the meat and spit out the bones."

Sometimes people choke on the bones before they realize they are in the meat.
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