That Dobson quote about the dog is in post 13

[TenderLovingWillow]

Originally Posted by rjy9343

But here is the thing about animal training, most people do not hit animals to train them because they become too fearful to train. Most people that train believe that animals are too sensitive to use harsh methods.
But these same people think nothing of swatting a toddler for whatever reason.

Some of us grew up hearing stories about a little boy who got a puppy.. The dad hands the boy an newspaper and instructs him to "train" the puppy. The boy refuses because he loved his puppy to much to hit it. Then one day the puppy runs in the street and doesn't respond to calls to come and gets run over by a car, and the tearful boy understands why his dad hits him.

When I was 16, I got a puppy and I trained her without hitting her at all, which is probably the first time I questioned that story. I just *couldn't* hit her. She was voice and finger signal trained, and much more responsive than the dogs we hit growing up.

[WingsOfTheMorning]

I never heard that story TLW, but I grew up with the dogs being hit and yelled at. It wasn't until I came here that I learned there was another way.

[HadassahSukkot]

Originally Posted by TenderLovingWillow

Some of us grew up hearing stories about a little boy who got a puppy.. The dad hands the boy an newspaper and instructs him to "train" the puppy. The boy refuses because he loved his puppy to much to hit it. Then one day the puppy runs in the street and doesn't respond to calls to come and gets run over by a car, and the tearful boy understands why his dad hits him.

When I was 16, I got a puppy and I trained her without hitting her at all, which is probably the first time I questioned that story. I just *couldn't* hit her. She was voice and finger signal trained, and much more responsive than the dogs we hit growing up.

A very similar story was used in my CLE English Literature. Something about a shepherd dog that had to be trained and kept getting out of the pen in the yard, kept getting in and terrorizing the sheep and so on and so forth. I HATED it. And I had to do it or I wouldn't get a grade in English for that week.

[duckwithoneleg]

What irritates me about it (besides all the obvious ick), is that in dog training as well as child raising, parents and pet owners alike seem to long for a quick fix.

Turns out gaining an animal's trust and respect takes a little time. We are given a LOT to start out with, though, with babies (children and animals, both, when they are wee). A lot of trust from them, that is. Really, it's up to us to be trustworthy over the long haul so we don't lose what we were freely given.

That is the big responsibility. It is a shame to see it shoved aside by anyone giving harmful advice .

[BarefootBetsy]

Pinching our upper arms was my mom 's go-to method in public A loudly uttered "OUCH!" usually stopped her pretty quickly though.

[hey mommy]

Originally Posted by rjy9343

I think the neck and strangulation thing comes from being handled roughly. I cannot remember being touched on my neck, but as soon as someone touches it (like say the chiropractor) I am ready to run as far as I can as fast as I can. I think it is just that environment that keeps you afraid and makes it really hard to tell good touches from bad touches. I don't care what anyone says, when your parents are already smacking you, their moods are the scariest things in the world. And because kids don't know that they have pushed too far until it is too late, they stay on eggshells.

Same here. I can't stand anyone near my throat. The back of my neck is okay, but never, evver, ever, my throat. Which ended up being a great spot for my X to hurt me. He knew how much I hated it, so he would do it just and tell me I had to get used to it.

[Snugglebugmom]

Originally Posted by hey mommy

He knew how much I hated it, so he would do it just and tell me I had to get used to it.

That is so sick and so cruel it makes me feel physically ill. I'm so glad you got away from him .

[MaryPoppinsIAin't]

I think... aside from absolutely turning my stomach... reading that story pretty much crystalized for me why I've chosen a gentle path. He is a grown man weighing 200 pounds. His dog weighs 12 (and that is one fat doxie if it weighs 12 pounds!). He could simply have grabbed it by it's scruff (which would have instantly calmed the animal, btw) and moved the dog to where he wanted him to be. Instead he took a belt to a 12 pound dog and escalated the situation into a full out fight for survival. That dog didn't fight because he wanted to be in charge. He fought because he thought he was in danger. I'd bite and claw and run in that situation too.

Of course, if a twelve-pound dog bared his teeth at me and growled in response to a command, my first response wouldn't be to grab a belt and hit him either. I'd probably snort out a "Really? I outweigh you by about a ton, dog, who exactly do you think you're bossing?" as I got me a good handful of his scruff.

And in the end, simple scruff or crazy fight, the dog ends up in his bed, with the understanding that the human is in charge, but for very different reasons.

I weigh 210 pounds (okay, 212, but it's water weight, I swear!!). My son weighs 23 pounds. And he doesn't even have claws, unless I've left his nails get too long. So far, he isn't inclined to bite either. So he grins and runs away sometimes when I tell him to come to me. There isn't one single thing stopping me from taking two steps across the room, picking him up, and moving him to where I want him to be. Whatever it is that I want to happen, I have the ability to simply make it happen. He gets the opportunity to do it on his own, but if he doesn't, it's the work of thirty seconds to make it happen anyway, and he's probably giggling at being swept up into the air.

If I were to spank him or yell at him or both for "disrespecting" or "disobeying" me, suddenly I have a situation that takes thirty minutes or better to fully resolve, because, melting-down toddler.

And somehow I don't think kids pick up the "I should be scared of you" thing as quickly as dogs.

[FarmMama]

So awful. We have a huge black german shepherd. He is voice and hand response trained. We do NOT hit him. He also has issues that we work with. According to the Dobson guy, when Zeus backs up and growls after a command we should be battling to the death. We don't. We realize he has anxiety sometimes and his little wee doggy head gets confused. So, if he jumps in the van and he is told to get out and he growls, we simply slip a leash over him and cheerfully say "cmon puppy, its okay, cmon out!" and he comes, because he isn't threatened anymore. It took some trial and error to find out what works with our dog. He wasn't being defiant...he didn't want to feel like he did, and relaxed quickly when his leash was slipped over his head (he found it comforting. I do not know why), his ears came forward again and his facial features softened.

Dobson is a coward. Zeus would be giving him a lesson quicker than that man could raise his arm fully.

Dobson wants to be feared. That is gross. I will take hard-earned and sought after respect from animals and children any day over fear.

[WingsOfTheMorning]

Originally Posted by MaryPoppinsIAin't

I think... aside from absolutely turning my stomach... reading that story pretty much crystalized for me why I've chosen a gentle path. He is a grown man weighing 200 pounds. His dog weighs 12 (and that is one fat doxie if it weighs 12 pounds!). He could simply have grabbed it by it's scruff (which would have instantly calmed the animal, btw) and moved the dog to where he wanted him to be. Instead he took a belt to a 12 pound dog and escalated the situation into a full out fight for survival. That dog didn't fight because he wanted to be in charge. He fought because he thought he was in danger. I'd bite and claw and run in that situation too.

Of course, if a twelve-pound dog bared his teeth at me and growled in response to a command, my first response wouldn't be to grab a belt and hit him either. I'd probably snort out a "Really? I outweigh you by about a ton, dog, who exactly do you think you're bossing?" as I got me a good handful of his scruff.

And in the end, simple scruff or crazy fight, the dog ends up in his bed, with the understanding that the human is in charge, but for very different reasons.

I weigh 210 pounds (okay, 212, but it's water weight, I swear!!). My son weighs 23 pounds. And he doesn't even have claws, unless I've left his nails get too long. So far, he isn't inclined to bite either. So he grins and runs away sometimes when I tell him to come to me. There isn't one single thing stopping me from taking two steps across the room, picking him up, and moving him to where I want him to be. Whatever it is that I want to happen, I have the ability to simply make it happen. He gets the opportunity to do it on his own, but if he doesn't, it's the work of thirty seconds to make it happen anyway, and he's probably giggling at being swept up into the air.

If I were to spank him or yell at him or both for "disrespecting" or "disobeying" me, suddenly I have a situation that takes thirty minutes or better to fully resolve, because, melting-down toddler.

And somehow I don't think kids pick up the "I should be scared of you" thing as quickly as dogs.

A mama here once said that the nice thing about small children is they are portable.

[MaryPoppinsIAin't]

My Malamute and I had the "who's in charge here" discussion the other day when she slipped her collar and did the boneless dead-weight "I'm not going" flop.

She weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of 70-80 pounds, big for a female Mal, but her daddy was a pony-sized dog, I kid you not. Scruffing and dragging really isn't an option, she's too heavy and it hurts her, which makes her snap.

She was rather stunned when I simply bear-hugged her under her shoulders, lifted, and carried her furry butt back over to her kennel. Sat perfectly still while I put her collar back on, didn't even wiggle.

This dog is huge, she absolutely can overpower me, she's done it. I no longer have the ability to drag her where I want her to be, and she knows it. But now she knows that I can and will make it happen, and I don't have to resort to hitting her to do it.

If my flabby 5'3" self can do it with a malamute (without even hurting myself), it kinda makes me a little contemptuous of the great big strong Maaaaaaaaaaan who can't lift a li'l ol' doxie.

[rjy9343]

When I was a kid, we had a malamute mix that was around 110 pounds who would do those things as well. And like you we had to pick up the dog and move her a couple of times. It did not take very many times. But seriously if a 90 pound teenager can pick up a 110 pound dog, then there is no reason a grown man cannot pick up a 12 pounder and move him.

[SilverMoon]

I keep thinking about this story, and another one he tells somewhere in the books about when he was a boy, sleeping over at his friend's house. The friend said he could get his father to swear, so the child antagonized the father over and over until he was swearing. Dobson said he never wanted to be controlled by a child like that.
That's his issue. Pride and control, maybe a fear of looking foolish (up there with pride).

And the ironic part of the dog story is that dog revealed his pride and made him look foolish.

I'm sickened that the story is supposed to relate to raising strong-willed children. He doesn't say that's how to handle children, but it's certainly implied in the story. To win at all costs. Yet, there's winning at any cost, including the high price of broken relationship, trust, and respect; and there's winning where everyone wins.

[MaryPoppinsIAin't]

So instead of swearing he jumps straight to beating a lap dog with a belt?

Yup. That totally makes sense.

[CelticJourney]

My husband was a dog handler (drug dog) and we were blessed with amazing, gentle dog trainers who believed in the power of the relationship/partnership between dog and human. They actually cautioned against absolute obedience - said 'if you dog is afraid to disobey, they will sit right were you told them to while someone sneeks up and stabs you in the dark'.

Unfortunately the prevailing training method in the area is puntiive. I noticed two very interesting things. First, all the other dogs in dh's department were labs AND the other guys were afraid of his shepard. They didn't know dogs very well in general and knew nothing of my dog (yes, MINE - I was the 'mama'). Once at a training I had Aiko on a walk around the building - we had arranged to use the church we attended for a group training. A group of very little kids wanted to pet him. I made sure I had his lead and said 'absolutely'. They were ALL OVER him and he was so gentle and gracious to the 'hairless puppies'. Dh called me and asked me to bring the dog over. As he entered the building to begin the training I hear the head 'dog guy' say to him 'you've got a firm hold on him, right?' He was afraid my gentle giant was a danger to him By comparison no relationship, no understanding of dog behavior and what is normal and what is a threat = no understanding of child development and fear they willl 'dominate the family'

As I said, other in the area used puntive methods. In the neighboring county there was an incident where about four dog teams were on scene. In the course of events a shot was fired. EVERY SINGLE DOG bit it's handler. When scary things happened, they didn't look to their handler as a source of information and comfort, they saw them as the threat. Not how a human family wants to experience the teenaged years!