So what do we do about Hebrews 12:6?

[erinee]

Originally Posted by Wonder Woman

http://aolff.com/?page_id=42

I'm not sure I understand. Wasn't this passage originally written in Greek? Is this saying that Paul didn't actually use the Greek word mastigoo and that someone later substituted that, or is it saying that the word mastigoo does not actually mean scourge? Or was this written originally in Aramaic rather than Greek, and the translators had to choose which Greek word to use?

[Wonder Woman]

Or was this written originally in Aramaic rather than Greek, and the translators had to choose which Greek word to use?

that's what I think she's saying, but I'll her when she comes online (and we are going through the site right now looking for articles to clarify, edit, etc...this may be a good one to mark )

[TraceMama]

[erinee]

Originally Posted by TraceMama

I just had to comment by shaking my head. I *so* totally understand this frustration and often wish that there were a way to get around all the difficulties of translation and word origins when it comes to studying the Bible. :/ In fact, your frustration is one of the reasons dh is hesitant to really dig into Bible study in the first place.

And what is this Bible that the Aramaic Society is releasing? It sounds like it might try to address some of the bigger translation issues.

I"m glad it's not just me. Honestly, when I dig deep, it's so much richer than it ever was before, but it's hard getting there -- I don't know what sources to trust and how to know what the words are supposed to mean. It really bothers me that I might be reading and getting it completely wrong.

[TraceMama]

Originally Posted by erinee

I"m glad it's not just me. Honestly, when I dig deep, it's so much richer than it ever was before, but it's hard getting there -- I don't know what sources to trust and how to know what the words are supposed to mean. It really bothers me that I might be reading and getting it completely wrong.

I *so* totally understand. I love the digging, the discovering, but I question the sources too.

OT but had to mention that I'm ENFP and dh is ISFP, so I'm sure that has something to do with our frustration.

[Yuliana]

Interesting thread. I go to an hispanic church so I had to find what it says in the spanish bible we use and I am

6PORQUE EL SEÑOR AL QUE AMA, DISCIPLINA,
Y AZOTA A TODO EL QUE RECIBE POR HIJO.

The bold word means to whip, it says that God whips all which he recieves as a son.

[celestial princess]

[Kazimiera]

Paul wrote in Greek but thought in Aramaic. So he had Aramaic thoughts and a Hebrew mindset behind his Greek words. When he uses the Greek language he uses it in a way that reflects his Jewishness. Kind of like someone who is speaking English as a second language they often use sentance structure and words that reflect their native tongue and native culture.

[BHope]

Originally Posted by Kazimiera

Paul wrote in Greek but thought in Aramaic. So he had Aramaic thoughts and a Hebrew mindset behind his Greek words. When he uses the Greek language he uses it in a way that reflects his Jewishness. Kind of like someone who is speaking English as a second language they often use sentance structure and words that reflect their native tongue and native culture.

That's an assumptive leap. As someone who grew up trilingual I know it's entirely possible to think and dream in languages that are not my mother tongue. For that matter there are entire chunks of my childhood where my internal dialogue was any thing but English. Is it possible and likely that he was speaking Greek and using it a way to reflect his Jewishness? Certainly. I also believe that words mean what they were used to mean in the context in which they were spoken. I don't believe that Paul's choice of words were without intention. From what I know of the character of Paul, through what he's revealed in his writing. I believe he knew very clearly what he meant to say when he wrote the words that he wrote.

[ArmsOfLove]

Did you know Paul INVENTED 8 words for Greek that did not exist prior to him writing his letters??? Paul most assuredly was conveying Hebraic thought in a Greek language And Aramaic was the modern parallel Hebrew/Semitic language to Greek at the time of the NT. Yeshua spoke Aramaic.

One of the biggest questions that has to be asked before studying the book of Hebrews, though, is WHO wrote it. And we just don't know. There are several researched and valid guesses, but that is, at the end of the day, all the are (as a side note, two of the suggestions are women and I think one of them has the best support for it but that's another post ).

But once we realize we don't know who wrote it we can move on to the purpose of the book, which is pretty obvious from the text. Chapter 1 makes it pretty evident this is being written to Jewish Believers in Messiah who are suffering. There is some debate over the time it was written--persecution prior to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD; post destruction (I tend to fall into this camp because of the direct effort to show that sacririce isn't necessary which wouldn't be a concern unless they couldn't sacrifice anymore because Acts reveals that Messianic believers were still fulfilling Temple sacrifices); or actual end times (I think there is parallel meaning here which is very common in much of Hebrew Scriptural texts). And the purpose of the book is to ENCOURAGE.

Now let's move to the passage we want to understand. Here's the passage in a little more context--which is VITAL in order to try and understand Hebrews 12:6:

For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
Hbr 12:4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;
Hbr 12:5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;
Hbr 12:6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."
Hbr 12:7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom {his} father does not discipline?
Hbr 12:8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
Hbr 12:9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
Hbr 12:10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He {disciplines us} for {our} good, so that we may share His holiness.
Hbr 12:11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
Hbr 12:12 Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble,
Hbr 12:13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that {the limb} which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
Hbr 12:14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

Note that in context the verse in question is NOTHING BUT a reference to the original passage in the OT. And in the HEBREW it does NOT have any reference to physical painful punishment.

Proverbs 3:11-12

My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction: For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son [in whom] he delighteth.

The word in Hebrew for "correcteth" is yakach and means

1) to prove, decide, judge, rebuke, reprove, correct, be right

a) (Hiphil)

1) to decide, judge

2) to adjudge, appoint

3) to show to be right, prove

4) to convince, convict

5) to reprove, chide

6) to correct, rebuke

b) (Hophal) to be chastened

c) (Niphal) to reason, reason together

d) (Hithp) to argue

and it usually refers to verbal correction or, the better translation, "come let us reason together."

which means we have to ask WHY did this author of Hebrews include the word scourge.

The simple answer is . . . the translation of this verse comes from the Septuagint. A Greek translation of the OT that had been done long before this book was written.

WHY? did they use the Septuagint? Good question--and, again, we don't know. One suggestion is that the author isn't Paul and this is the only verstion of the OT they have been exposed to. Another suggestion is that, Paul or not, the way it's worded in the Septuagint helps them make their point.

So let's see what the point is:

vs3 For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

Who are we to consider? Jesus. He is the one who has endured such hostility by sinners against himself. And by considering him we will not grow weary and lose heart in our own struggles and perseuction.

Hbr 12:4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;

If you're still alive you haven't suffered even as much as Jesus has

Hbr 12:5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;
Hbr 12:6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."

In context we can see that the audience for this book is suffering severe persecution. The author is trying to encourage them that they are going through these things *because* they are God's children--not because He has rejected them (which they were fearing).

Hbr 12:7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom {his} father does not discipline?

And this is where the logic for interpreting this verse as saying God "spanks" or "punishes" us starts to break down. God is disciplining us as we go through things. that is true. Keep reading, though:

Hbr 12:8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

Because he is disciplining us we are legitimate children--if we weren't his children he would abandon us (and if we're being persecuted for His name and our faith then if we weren't his children we wouldn't be persecuted).

Hbr 12:9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
Hbr 12:10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He {disciplines us} for {our} good, so that we may share His holiness.

And because of this interjection by the author we CANNOT take this passage as saying that God spanks us.

The point here is made that our earthly fathers discipline us and we don't stop thinking they love us--and our earthly fathers may use any and all means of discipline. They do what they believe is best. BUT God disciplines us for our good and to make us holy.

The author is NOT saying that God spanks us so our earthly fathers need to spank us.
The author is also not saying that both earthly fathers and God spank.
The author is making the point: we don't doubt our earthly fathers' love for us when we endure discipline; why would we doubt God's love for us when we suffer? God uses our suffering to discipline us. It doesn't suggest it's the only means but it is something God uses! And when we go through horrible suffering for our faith it can be encouraging to know that God is using it to mature us.

Hbr 12:11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

Even reasoning together can be painful if we are having to realize that our own ways aren't going to cut it. If we are having to change and are being challenged it's NOT joyful; it's hard. When the things we cling to have to be ripped from us for our own good; when the beliefs we don't want to let go of have to be removed by their tentacles we resist; but afterwards it is always for our own good.

Hbr 12:12 Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble,
Hbr 12:13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that {the limb} which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
Hbr 12:14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

Keep living Torah--even if it means you get persecuted. YOU do what is right Amen!

Ultimately, this is NOT a passage about parenting, or even about *how* to discipline. It's a passage about how to endure suffering for our faith and stay encouraged. One of the thoughts that I can't help but focus in on when I read and study this passage, because it begins with us being told to consider Jesus and his suffering as a frame of reference for our own . . . Jesus *was* scourged. He was beaten and mangled. And HE is the SON in whom God is well pleased. I agree with the author that if I have not endured suffering for my faith to the point of death like Jesus then I can ONLY make the choice to continue to endure.

And, yes, it can be very difficult and frustrating to study Scripture out until we are confident we know what it means Maybe this can encourage you, though . . . Proverbs 8:10-11

Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. For wisdom [is] better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

I really believe something that valuable is worth seeking--and we know that when we keep on seeking . . . we will find

[illinoismommy]

I thought Jesus took our punishment so we didn't have to be punished, too.

[ArmsOfLove]

Yep--he was scourged so we don't have to be

[mountainash]

Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove

Yep--he was scourged so we don't have to be

Who scourged Him? God? Is God punitive?

[ArmsOfLove]

Originally Posted by mountainash

Who scourged Him? God? Is God punitive?

not at all--it was man--sinful man. Jesus IS God and he didn't beat himself.

[mountainash]

Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove

not at all--it was man--sinful man. Jesus IS God and he didn't beat himself.

Yeah, that's what I think, too. But I grew up taught that God poured out His wrath on Jesus. That belief seriously hindered my faith and later made parenting gently challenging.