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Unprepared for Parenting (Ezzos, Pearls, Etc.) *Public* Support and information for those affected by the Ezzos, the Pearls, and other punitive and adversarial methods of child-rearing.
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23. No posts harshly dissecting parenting moments of others since we desire to humbly cultivate a heart attitude of grace and not judgment towards other mamas. We all struggle at times as parents and have much to learn, and GCM's focus is to provide tools and information for each of us to parent more effectively. Posts voicing some frustration regarding choices made by others can be okay, but it needs to be within the overall context of seeking understanding or ideas for better responses in the future.

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Old 03-22-2010, 09:27 AM   #46
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

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Originally Posted by Adelynn View Post


I'm sorry, I wasn't going to comment on this thread again, too much opinion being thrown around. Yes, they are punitive, yes, they are wife submission, I already said that, but this just cracks me up as someone who knows the Campbell family.....

"perfect"
I don't know them. I only know what has been put out there, and what I've heard Nancy say at conferences and personally. I can only judge from that, and it is sinister and false teaching IMO This is based ON HER WORK, on her website, on her writing and on her speaking. It isn't just my opinion based on some whim. It is based on her actual ministry. You may have a different opinion of her, and that is fine. But I remind anybody of the following

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Old 03-22-2010, 01:56 PM   #47
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

The criticism isn't of Campbell's family or her followers. I'm sure her daughters are quite sweet. The criticism is of her teachings and ministry.

Preaching a punitive God is preaching a lie. A very dangerous heart destroying lie. It may be all wrapped up in ribbons and bows, but it is all the same destructive to the Church.

We are to flee false teachers. Not listen and take the good, and try to weed out the bad, but actively flee. Because they will confuse and poison what we faith we have.
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Old 03-22-2010, 05:14 PM   #48
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

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We are to flee false teachers. Not listen and take the good, and try to weed out the bad, but actively flee. Because they will confuse and poison what we faith we have.
I guess that this is where I would disagree then . If we only read and listened to those that we agree with in our faith would never be challenged, we could never refine what we believe and don't believe, we would become "weak" in faith and may even miss out on something good.

I read and will continue to read from ALL view points, I will not restrict myself to one viewpoint in an effort not to be mislead. First, and FOREMOST, I must be grounded in the Scriptures so that I can recognize a lie when I see it, but I can also recognize TRUTH when I come across it because I have been grounded in the Word and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirt. I will choose to applaud and appreciate the TRUTH in every form that I find it, and reject the lies without losing respect for the teacher, we are ALL deceived in some form. I sometimes wonder if that is a "God"-thing, so that NONE can boast in their perfect theology, and to keep our faith firmly based in His grace and mercy rather than our doctrine and open to refinement .

In the epistles where Paul tells us to flee False Teachers, I am sure that he was referring to those whose very fundamentals of the Christian faith were lies meant to cause people to be caught up in a "works" based faith, - NOT in how we work out our grace-based faith . Jesus himself, told His disciples to leave alone those who were preaching and doing miracles in His name, who they didn't even "know" and Jesus told them to leave them be, that whatever was not against Him was for Him. I don't see him telling his disciples to "stay clear of their false teachings".

I read and listen to multiple teachers, I read "gasp" the Pearls, I want to KNOW what they are saying. I read Doug Phillips, Bill Gothard, I want to KNOW what they are teaching. There are often GOOD things in their words, where God has actually given them an insight that could be overlooked if I chose to look at them only through the lenses of judgemental glasses. And when I have absorbed something not quite right, the Spirit is able to set me straight again, and then I again can lovingly and respectfully disagree when that topic may come up in my life.

I even read and listen to teachings of other faiths - Muslim, etc. I want to KNOW what they are preaching, so that when I come across someone who believes that faith, I will know what to speak on with LOVE rather than just tearing down their belief system, I can lovingly lay seeds and let the Holy Spirit water them without coming across as negative. I think that this is easier when I am already practicing it with my Christian brothers and sisters.

This idea that we must limit ourselves is eerily like the conditions of cults and extreme fundamentalist - don't listen to anyone else than "our" ideas, we are only trying to protect you from the "false" teachings out there. I grew up there - extreme fundie, and I have seen the great amount of energy spent on "exposing" the lies of all the others, and in reality it only fills our spirits with suspicion and fear, poor breeding grounds for the fruits of the Spirit. I normally don't frequent this forum, because it gives me those old negative feelings of "trashing" the enemy .

I will CHOOSE to applaud the positive in every place I find it , I will CHOOSE to lovingly disagree with my brothers and sisters in Christ , keeping the lines of communication open and in the process keeping my own heart in a place where the Spirit can freely direct me to ALL that He has for me. And I will CHOOSE to LOVINGLY disagree with you today .

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Old 03-22-2010, 06:17 PM   #49
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

not everyone's filter works the same, though.

Some can chew and spit, and others can not, for various reasons, make that work in their lives.

We are all vulnerable to the attack of the enemy, and for some (dare I say, many) Christians, the negative teachings of many Christian authors outweigh the worth of the small nuggets of material.

One only has to commit to read and absorb the Word of God. Anything else is a liberty issue.
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. . . . . . .



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Old 03-23-2010, 06:36 AM   #50
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

We have lots of new and relatively new posters here at GCM lately, so I want to take just a moment to state a reminder. Unprepared as a forum is to discuss punitive teachers and their work. We DON'T discuss those who follow the teachings, mostly because the variations on how people impliment a teachings are so great that it becomes meaningless, and we don't discuss their families except when that relationship has relativity to the teachings (ie a teacher promises a strong relationship with adult children as a result of their teachings, but they have no relationship with their own adult children, for example).

-------------------------------------------

As to the idea of 'take the good and leave the bad', as Allison said, we all have a varied ability to 1) walk away not feeling 'dirty' and 2) differentiating what is good and what is bad. I have lived long enough and studied deeply enough to never forget my humanity and my own falability - I am not a perfect truth detector. I am striving every day to be the lamb that 'knows her Shepard's voice' and to teach that to my children. If I hear a voice teaching things that are AT THEIR VERY CORE in opposition to the truth that my Father teaches, then I am making myself vulnerable to continue to listen to their lies. Every false teacher begins with truth - people are vulnerable but not stupid. If there was no truth to begin with, the teacher would be impotent. Our vulnerability comes in when we can't decide where the line between God's truth and their twisting/changing/distorting comes in or WORSE when we think we can when we actually can't.

I recently had a conversation with a young women who is 'dabbling' in many different religions, including Wicca. She finds 'some truth' in various places. As I told her, 'yes, you will find fragments of truth in many places, but they are not the complete truth, so why waste your time and spirit on the lies.' The same goes, for me, with Christian teachings - when I find that the core the teaching is a not in harmony with the truth of the Gospel, then all of the 'practical' or 'good' has to come into question.

At it's foundation, concern over Punitive teachings are about the core from which they start - the core belief that something outside of Christ is NECESSARY for a child to grow to become a mature Christian. That parents have the power and responsibility to determine their child's spiritual future - that they are at war against their blessings. Spanking, punishment, etc are an outward symptom of an inward distortion of the Gospel message. So if the foundation is flawed, why hang out in the house it's built on.

In my opinion and experience, there is no need to subject myself to questionable materials, no matter how wrapped in sunshine and roses they might be, unless I am specifically called to do so. We are to be discerning enough to avoid temptation, not flirt with doctrine that we know is clearly in contrast with the words and works of Christ.
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Old 03-23-2010, 10:51 AM   #51
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

I couldn't get this one off my mind and had some other thoughts:

For me, there is a big difference between 'reading' or 'knowing' what a teacher says and 'listening' to them. For example, I 'know' a lot of what Ezzo says, many times I have found that I 'know' more about what he teaches that those who claim to follow or endorse him. But, I don't listen to him at all. Someone very wise once said 'what is good about Ezzo is not unique, what is unque about Ezzo is not good'. Whatever is good about the teaching of Ezzo, Pearl or ... Islam or Wicca ... any truth they have to share is not unique. I will find that same truth in the scriptures or in sound Gospel based teachings, where I can truely listen without fear.

And there is a flip side. We often will caution mothers who have had a brush with Ezzo or Pearl to be sure they are callled to 'join the fight' because those of us who have 'seen battle' in this particular area of spiritual warefare know that there is a price to pay. My 'knowledge' of Ezzo and Pearl has come with a price, even if I do not 'listen' to them. I pay the price of a loss of a form of innocence. I now 'know' without a doubt the dark side of institutional religion - the power grabs, the us-against-them, the robbing Christ's followers of their blessings by twisting the scripture. I know that there is a battle ongoing for the very heart of God's family and that is a heavy burden at times.

So taking this back to Above Rubies. Is there truth there? I am sure there is something positive to be taken from their materials if you work at it, but probably also available in safer forms. Could I visit their site and read their materials? Sure, but not lightly and not without my 'heavy battle gear of discernment' on. Is it worth the time and spiritual energy to walk that path? For me, absolutely not.
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Old 03-23-2010, 11:37 AM   #52
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

Sorry, still don't agree with that arguement . It really sounds a LOT like the arguements of the fundie/"separation from the world" camps that I've come out of. If I hadn't dropped that thinking, I would still be there .

This kind of thinking causes us to separate from rather than love our Christian brothers and sisters. It says "because you are deceived in my opinion, you have nothing to offer me, God does not work through you". . Sorry, but I think that stinks, I would lose SO much good from my life with an attitude like that.

SO I would rather celebrate and be the light in the darkness, than curse the darkness .
 
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Old 03-23-2010, 11:48 AM   #53
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

I don't think anyone is saying that you can't be friends with people who follow different teachings, but that when -you- feel that taste of false teaching, you have to know it for what it is, and not take it in. It's about the teachings, not the people. Fundie garbage makes it about the people.
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Old 03-23-2010, 12:24 PM   #54
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

I love AR I've been a reader for around 5 years. Serene and Pearl's CD's are my favorite CD's ever. SO encouraging and uplifting as a wife and mother. I do believe we are called to honour and respect our DH's as our head. You will find no other music that encourages you like theres. There's no talk of dicipiline anywhere. Actually just asking for grace when she's been loosing her patience with the kids. The magazine, aside from the opening article has very little from Nancy. Almost the whole thing is just reader sumission. Maybe some of you with problems with the mag. can write an article about GBD. I've seen some posted there before.

I absolutly love how the magazine has a natural living lean, that childrean are wonderful blessing from God and should be desired, whether by adoption or birth. They encourage you that motherhood is to be valued, unlike what the rest of the world thinks. I am truly thankful for all the encouragement I've recieved from AR and will thankfully continue recieving the magazine for as long as it's published.
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Old 03-23-2010, 07:45 PM   #55
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

Just to be clear--people can hold whatever individual opinion about the magazine and whatever that they do. We need to remember that GCM is not a place to defend them as a whole or any part of them that is counter to the statement of beliefs agreed to when applying for membership. We have too many people who are healing from the punitive garbage that does appear in their magazines to hold back warning that it's there.
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Old 03-24-2010, 02:06 AM   #56
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

What Crystal said.
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Old 03-24-2010, 07:43 AM   #57
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

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Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove View Post
Just to be clear--people can hold whatever individual opinion about the magazine and whatever that they do. We need to remember that GCM is not a place to defend them as a whole or any part of them that is counter to the statement of beliefs agreed to when applying for membership. We have too many people who are healing from the punitive garbage that does appear in their magazines to hold back warning that it's there.
Now this I don't have a problem with . I do this ALL the time. What I was taking issue with wasn't even in defense of the magazine, I was taking issue with the censorship like "stay clear" messages, and the trash talk like calling people "sinister" - good grief . We can give warnings, we can speak fact - like when I said right at the beginning that they advocated spanking, and that they were WOS, I immediately mentioned that there might be an issue with this board.

However, I still feel strongly that the censorship messages are exactly the same as those given by the opposite side which was even more disconcerting since this is supposed to be the "Grace" side, and I see the same fear and suspicious attitude from the "Grace" people, makes me think "same manure, different pile" . "Perfect Love casts out all fear" - I guess that is the biggest reason why I am so disappointed with this whole forum, and that has been from day one when I first looked at this sight, this forum turned me right off and gave me that "yuck", "icky" feeling that everyone seems to base their judgements on , ETA - but I perservered to find the gold, I guess based on your arguements, I should have run away as soon as I hit that yuck/ick feeling and never signed in to be approved - I only come to this forum randomly but came because I happened to see mention of AR and I figured at least I could knowledgably and factually add to that conversation.

On another note, interestingly my Bible only mentions ONE kind of armour, I put it on each day to face each and every situation. It is light weight and flexible to protect me in EVERY situation. I believe that it is sufficient to protect me, I don't think God would lie to me. I've never heard of "heavy battle gear of discernment" to me this sounds again exactly like the others side's words for "make sure you get yourself FILLED up with our teachings and opinions" so that you can walk into situations with OUR -coloured glasses on with an "us" against "them" attitude . I would rather put on the armour given me, and walk in the Spirit as He gently speaks truth to me, rather than viewing everything suspiciously and militantly .

I'm sorry that I spun this thread off into another discussion with my own agenda .

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Old 03-24-2010, 08:05 AM   #58
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

But then why is it OK for people to continually tear down the magazine. Some of us, not just me, have been greatly ministered to by the magazine. I seriously read it for years before I found anything with a punitive slant.

If you don't like it, fine. State your belief. But I do like it. Others here do like it. We have the right to enjoy a magazine and defend it when it's being torn down. I have not defeded any punitive stuff in the mag. I've simply said it's rarely there and the good out weighs the bad. I'm sick of people saying horrible things about Nancy and AR. I'm not just going to sit here while people tear into AR, going through the site, picking out the few bad articles while ignoring the many, many good ones. Look at the Pearl site. Good luck not finiding a punitive one. Now look at the AR site. Maybe 1-3% have a punitive slant? To me, that's truly throwing the baby out with the bath water. There is no other ministry that lifts you up in your calling of motherhood like AR.

Let's not forget that AR is almost entirely reader submission. So even if you have issues with Nancy, it's very easy to turn to the 3rd page where her opening article is over. The rest is almost always entirely reader submission and maybe one of her daughters wrote something on food. Or the last article I read by her DD was about how blessed she is to have the life little girl's dream of when playing house.

I'm not defending the odd punitive thing, I'm defending a magzine and ministry that values motherhood, being a wife and a Christian. Those are the 3 most important things in my life.

This has wayyyy more soup than poop. I guess if you are anti-QF and anti- your husband leading your family than you would find it a little on the poopy side. But still the majority of articles are encouraging about being a mom, a Christian, a homeschooler, an APer.

I get and respect others who choose to not get a magazine that has anything at all, ever, to do with punitive parenting or the husband as the head of the family. But that's such a small, small part. It's a shame to discredit the entire ministry. SHould we never read anything from focus on the family or let our kids listen to adventures in Oddessy? Not use BJU as one of thier writers...can't remeber who, wrote a punitive parenting novel? Not use any Christian thing ever that has anything to do with punitive parenting in anyway would be pretty challenging. I however prefer to benefit from things while eating with a strainer.
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Old 03-24-2010, 08:17 AM   #59
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

Quote:
trash talk like calling people "sinister" - good grief
I did not call anybody sinister. Nor did I say this ministry was sinister. That is a twisting of words and a drastic misquote. Please do not do that.

I said

Quote:
However I've learned that if a ministry is to "perfect" there is quite possibly something sinister there too
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Old 03-24-2010, 08:30 AM   #60
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Default Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?

Why did you say that then if you weren't saying that the ministry appears perfect, therefore there must be something sinister? You may not have used the word sinister for Nancy, but it seems really clear that you think very bad things of her.
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