a question for those who use to be punitive

I forgot to add to my last post. . . .this is partly where my many questions come from. How can our hearts be "deceitful and wicked" and still be able to be right with God? How is 'showing' our children punishment getting them closer to understanding what God has done for them? I can only surmise that I am not bright enough to be able to "get it" and put it all together into what he means and says.

[ArmsOfLove]

How can our hearts be "deceitful and wicked" and still be able to be right with God?

the answer to THAT is "Grace"! God makes our hearts right and Jesus moves into them. Jesus cannot live in chaos and if you heart were to remain full of sin and deceitful Jesus could not dwell there Your heart is your mind, will and emotions and that is what you need to love God with

Think of this--you are SINGLE until you are MARRIED; your heart is deceitful until grace makes it clean

[RubySlippers]

Originally Posted by Chris3jam

Because that is what God does with us (we are taught). Again, pastor will ask for a raising of hands when he asks, "I know I have been spanked by God. . . who here has been? That's what I thought. . .just about everyone, you bunch of sinners [said humorously; and everyone giggles]. And let me tell you, if you have not been, you may need to really look at your life and make sure you even are a child of God, because God chastens those whom are his children. I take great comfort in His chastening. . .he's getting me back on the right path, and it means I am His child." (of course, "chasten" is "spanking")

Is your pastor saying that the chastening is all the bad things that happen to him? After suffering negative consequences or calamity, he finally came to realize how vile he was and in need of a Savior. Kinda like, God brought him to his knees? And God still does this after he is a Christian to get his attention so that he doesn't suffer worse consequences?
So is this where the idea that everything bad that happens to us is God's chastening?

OH, CHris! Ick. THat is *exactly* what I grew up hearing... even the phrasing. It's like there are a bunch of mouthpieces out there spouting the same sick recorded message.

This part especially:

Because that is what God does with us (we are taught). Again, pastor will ask for a raising of hands when he asks, "I know I have been spanked by God. . . who here has been? That's what I thought. . .just about everyone, you bunch of sinners [said humorously; and everyone giggles]. And let me tell you, if you have not been, you may need to really look at your life and make sure you even are a child of God, because God chastens those whom are his children. I take great comfort in His chastening. . .he's getting me back on the right path, and it means I am His child." (of course, "chasten" is "spanking")

made my stomach churn. We were told that all the time, too. (My husband teases me with "You'd better check your salvation if... " b/c he knows how it makes me.) My sister and I were talking just yesterday about how many nights after church we went home and laid awake in bed--terrified to go to sleep b/c the preacher implied that we might not REALLY be saved. I've often heard that ploy even from the pulpit.. "When you close your eyes tonight... do you know that if you died in your sleep, you'd wake up in heaven? do you KNOW?" Our salvation was constantly called into question, but we also supposed to be absolutely, unquestionably sure of it (blessed assurance, don't you know!), and if we weren't TOTALLY SURE then that was a sign we ought to question it, too.

This kind of stuff is spiritual abuse--plain and simple. I know the men who stand in the pulpit don't think of it that way, but they're just functioning as clones of whatever school of thought they came from... trying so hard to persuade and change the hearts of men themselves that they push God's real children into a state of fear and insecurity and self-deprecation. It makes me sad... and angry. That is not shepherding--it is fear-mongering.

Off topic rant over...

[cklewis]

I hope someone asks me if God has ever spanked me! 'Cause I'll tell 'em.

I thought the will/spirit came from Dobson. Er . . . that's where I heard it first in those movies.

C

[euromom]

So where does Dobson get this idea from? What is his reasoning behind it?

[cklewis]

i've heard it in old, old stuff. like puritan sermons. :/

c

If God did "spank" us then we could blame every awful thing that happened to us on him...like my baby died, and when religious people insinuate it was "God" who made him die...I feel like hating God. So no wonder people who get trained this way, when something really tragic happens to them, they turn from God because they've been taught that God "spanks" us.
This has been my 10 month struggle now...was it God? or not? If it was, I wouldn't want to serve such a mean God...so I have to believe that Satan is the one who "kills steals, & destroys" not God. And if Satan is the "killer, stealer, & destroyer" then God isn't and he is a loving God who doesn't spank us. Just what I've been working through...

Because that is what God does with us (we are taught). Again, pastor will ask for a raising of hands when he asks, "I know I have been spanked by God. . . who here has been? That's what I thought. . .just about everyone, you bunch of sinners [said humorously; and everyone giggles]. And let me tell you, if you have not been, you may need to really look at your life and make sure you even are a child of God, because God chastens those whom are his children. I take great comfort in His chastening. . .he's getting me back on the right path, and it means I am His child." (of course, "chasten" is "spanking")

I wonder if this pastor would take comfort in God's so called chastening if one of his children died??? I don't think so!!

[cklewis]

Originally Posted by 2inHeaven2inAfrica

If God did "spank" us then we could blame every awful thing that happened to us on him...like my baby died, and when religious people insinuate it was "God" who made him die...I feel like hating God. So no wonder people who get trained this way, when something really tragic happens to them, they turn from God because they've been taught that God "spanks" us.
This has been my 10 month struggle now...was it God? or not? If it was, I wouldn't want to serve such a mean God...so I have to believe that Satan is the one who "kills steals, & destroys" not God. And if Satan is the "killer, stealer, & destroyer" then God isn't and he is a loving God who doesn't spank us. Just what I've been working through...

I wonder if this pastor would take comfort in God's so called chastening if one of his children died??? I don't think so!!

You're right, Kristie! You're exactly right. And I say that over and over and over.

After our Elise was born (still), my DH's boss (whose little girl died when she was two) told us, "Don't listen to people who tell you that this is God punishing you. They are incorrect. It's not. If it were God punishing you, you'd KNOW it for sure." I *think* that was his way of saying that God uses consequences that are logical and not willy-nilly.

But God didn't kill our babies. I know He didn't.

C

[kwisie]

This is bringing up so many memories from when I was growing up. I've heard all these exact things preached - using the exact same words, no less!!! No wonder I have had to really work on being able to trust God, if that's the view I was taught by spiritual leaders.

I'm so glad it seems that these trends are changing. So very glad.

If God did "spank" us then we could blame every awful thing that happened to us on him...like my baby died, and when religious people insinuate it was "God" who made him die...I feel like hating God. So no wonder people who get trained this way, when something really tragic happens to them, they turn from God because they've been taught that God "spanks" us.

Well, he preaches also that not everything bad that happens is sent by God to punish us. And he does use the word "consequences". All things work to the glory of God, but sometimes things just happen because of the fallen world we live in. But, we are supposed to search our hearts and see if there is a sin we are hiding or not confessing when those bad things happen, to decide whether or not it is a punishment or just something that happened. But, I do tend to think that everything bad that happens is a punishment. That I've done something bad and am reaping the consequences of some action. For instance, I believe that God is "letting me reap the consequences" of my actions by giving me MS. I've not taken care of myself the way I should. I believe that God will not take it away until I figure out what it is I'm doing wrong and change it. I believe that I've done something wrong for God to have given me "difficult" children. We've just finished our Bible study, and I'm shaking (with self-control. .. . I wanted to just.. . . well, just smack 'em and yell and scream and give up, but I stayed calm and kind - -- it takes unimaginable effort, especially day after day). I have a 10 yo who can't read and who defies me and argues every step of the way, an 8 yo with major attitude (I told him to make the bed [part of what he was supposed to do today for his Bible study] and he kicked a shoe and 'dented' the wall, because he was very unhappy at having to do it), etc. Therefore, I am reaping the consequences. If I *ever* lost a child, I *would* "blame myself". I *would* wonder what it is that I did wrong. And I would be convinced that I had done something wrong. I know that pastor has preached and does preach about unconditional love. . . ..assurance of salvation. . .. grace. .. . etc. But, why isn't *that* sinking in?

[kwisie]

Chris,

I have similar tendencies, and I've lived my whole live in fear, waiting for the shoe to drop. Growing up, everytime one of my friends moved away (I lost my "best friend" in 3rd grade.. again in 6th grade... again in 9th grade... etc.) I believed God was trying to "get my attention" or "teach me a lesson" by taking away someone I loved, and that if I didn't "learn" my lesson, He would just keep taking away people who I loved even more--like my family. I am ALWAYS terrified of losing the people I love... not in the sense that I know I would grieve and such, but in the sense of dreading it--almost waiting for it to happen--like I'm being stalked or something.

My view of God is slowly, slowly changing, but it's going to take some time to undo the fear and dread that were instilled in me and the and "I'm-being-punished" glasses through which I tend to interpret things.

[ArmsOfLove]

Chris--if God GAVE you MS because of not taking care of your body well enough then He isn't a loving God That is mean; that is spiteful; and that is not the action of a loving God who loves us so much he died for us, and loved us while we were yet sinners. What you are saying is that unbelievers, the unrepentant, get more grace than the saved

[TulipMama]

What you are saying is that unbelievers, the unrepentant, get more grace than the saved.

But isn't this how so many of us live? If we don't really believe it in our heads, we still act like we believe it in our actions.

(And, spinning off, within Christianity, don't we act as if God shows more grace to those "in the world" than the children in our families "in the covenant?)