Bill Gothard

[Beauty4Ashes]

I wanted to add that it pains me to think that this man would say that a clean house/kitchen whatever is a sign of a spiritual life that is in order. I'm struggling to have a spiritual life, and have been for years. But my kitchen is clean and so is my house. the two are not mutually exclusive.

[Soliloquy]

Originally Posted by Beauty4Ashes

I wanted to add that it pains me to think that this man would say that a clean house/kitchen whatever is a sign of a spiritual life that is in order. I'm struggling to have a spiritual life, and have been for years. But my kitchen is clean and so is my house. the two are not mutually exclusive.

Wow, that is really scary. I grew up in a very clean house--my parents' spiritual life was NOT in order.

[CelticJourney]

I apologize. I posted not knowing much about him, except hearing about his parenting methods. I didn't mean for it to turn into a theological discussion.

Not a problem - it's related. Theology just might have more posters who have information on the topic is all.

Originally Posted by Beauty4Ashes

I wanted to add that it pains me to think that this man would say that a clean house/kitchen whatever is a sign of a spiritual life that is in order. I'm struggling to have a spiritual life, and have been for years. But my kitchen is clean and so is my house. the two are not mutually exclusive.

Wow... that's actually very weird. What about those people who are neat freaks and spend so much time in cleaning they forsake everything else?

[MissusLeata]

Gothard isn't all about parenting and family. People attend the seminar and find things they really like. He teaches some things that are pretty good. And he's conservative, so conservatives like him.

He encourages homeschooling, encourages courtship, discourages debt, supports quiverfull families, encourages homebirth and midwifery, encourages natural medicine, etc. etc. So, there are plenty of things that are attractive to a lot of families.

He doesn't teach specifics (that I can remember) on things like schedule feeding, but he did promote the Ezzo's material. If he did teach anything like that, it was probably at ATI conferences, not his more mainstream stuff.

He does teach a lot on parenting and marriage. I was in his program and thought I was completely prepared to counsel people in any situation on marriage and family. Alot of that teaching comes from applications or misapplications from the OT law. He supported circumcision on the 8th day, 14 days of abstinence per month in marriages, abstinence on Saturday nights, abstinence after miscarriages. He teaches that girls who make vows can be released from them by their fathers or husbands, but men cannot be released from vows. These are ideas that he gets from the Torah, but he doesn't always apply them correctly or take NT teaches along with them.

[ArmsOfLove]

because theology is at the foundation for everything he teaches understanding where he is coming from theologically is really important for understanding what he's teaching--and it's rooted in outright heresy When I first dug through his teachings I was shocked at some of the connections to things and conclusions he draws.

Needless to say he has constructed a very elaborate "New Testament Law" that has usurped the OT Torah and based on it he gets ideas about obedience and cleanliness/order that are Odd at best. It's this NT Law that children are held to in a very ungraceful way--and adults. I think some people really feel safest and most comfortable in the black and white of things and when they've been told the Torah doesn't apply anymore they *need* guidelines for living. Gothard is more than willing to jump in and offer them

He markets himself like a pro, though, that's for sure.

[MissusLeata]

A lot of Gothard's "principles" come from stories in the Bible. For example: when God sent manna to the Children of Israel, He sent twice as much on Friday but none on the Sabbath. Mr. Gothard gets from this that God was encouraging people to fast on the Sabbath. He then encourages his disciples to fast on Sunday based on this "testimony" of Scripture. So, he "gets" it from the OT, but it's not what the OT teaches, if that makes sense.

[ArmsOfLove]

Mr. Gothard gets from this that God was encouraging people to fast on the Sabbath

Fasting is FORBIDDEN on the Sabbath! (unless it's Yom Kippur). God was helping them fulfill the command to not WORK on the Sabbath

[MissusLeata]

Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove

Fasting is FORBIDDEN on the Sabbath! (unless it's Yom Kippur). God was helping them fulfill the command to not WORK on the Sabbath

I know, but lots of the "principles" taught in IBLP (Gothard's ministry) come from that sort of "exegesis." Passages that are obviously teaching one thing are said to be teaching a principle of life that we should follow.

Another example: Miriam was struck with leprosy after leading the girls in a dance. Though the passage makes it clear that the leprosy was judgment for her attitude toward Moses, Gothard uses it as an example that dancing always leads to judgment.

He does a LOT of reading things into the text. :-(

[ArmsOfLove]

oh gosh--that is just HORRIBLE. Thanks for sharing all of these examples I think he teaches absolute heresy--what I can't figure out is if he does it out of intent or ignorance

[MissusLeata]

Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove

oh gosh--that is just HORRIBLE. Thanks for sharing all of these examples I think he teaches absolute heresy--what I can't figure out is if he does it out of intent or ignorance

That's a good question. I've met him personally and so has my husband. There are things about him that make me think that his intentions are good and things that make me think he knows what he's doing. I don't think he could be completely ignorant because I know he's been confronted many times.

Oh, I am convinced and sure that his intentions are good. That he *really* believes what he says. And he feels that he must 'share' those things. And, I have seen those teachings benefit people greatly. I know one lady who was so miserable that she was contemplating suicide. Then she went to a seminar, and she is convinced that he saved her life, because she now had something to live for. She said that he put the Biblical principles into such clarity for her, that she could live properly now, with a good attitude (and not be miserable because of her life situation. . . which included a dh that had a very spotty work track record, leaving them without food and electricity at times).

[Rabbit]

Originally Posted by Chris3jam

Oh, I am convinced and sure that his intentions are good. That he *really* believes what he says. And he feels that he must 'share' those things. And, I have seen those teachings benefit people greatly. I know one lady who was so miserable that she was contemplating suicide. Then she went to a seminar, and she is convinced that he saved her life, because she now had something to live for. She said that he put the Biblical principles into such clarity for her, that she could live properly now, with a good attitude (and not be miserable because of her life situation. . . which included a dh that had a very spotty work track record, leaving them without food and electricity at times).

That is so incredibly frightening.

That is the danger. He offers "Biblical" steps to living a Godly life, which offers peace. IOW. ... . give up. Just. .. .. give up. It's all God's Will, and be happy. And I know people that follow his teachings, personally, that are very happy and don't have a worry in the world. Seriously. It's real. It's enviable. There is one family of 10 (parents and 8 children)that lived off around 30,000/yr. There were times they had no food, and they cheerfully said (the parents), "let's pray". And someone would put 50.00 in their hands that night or the next day, or bring them food or whatever they needed. The dh finally got a better job (a pastorate), and the wife lamented "Now, how will I teach my children faithfulness?!" These people are truly hapy and content. And they do tend to have an air of superiority, because *they* are totally committed to and following God 100% (which implies the rest of us, who have problems or such like that, are not).

[Beauty4Ashes]

Originally Posted by Chris3jam

That is the danger. He offers "Biblical" steps to living a Godly life, which offers peace. IOW. ... . give up. Just. .. .. give up. It's all God's Will, and be happy. And I know people that follow his teachings, personally, that are very happy and don't have a worry in the world. Seriously. It's real. It's enviable. There is one family of 10 (parents and 8 children)that lived off around 30,000/yr. There were times they had no food, and they cheerfully said (the parents), "let's pray". And someone would put 50.00 in their hands that night or the next day, or bring them food or whatever they needed. The dh finally got a better job (a pastorate), and the wife lamented "Now, how will I teach my children faithfulness?!" These people are truly hapy and content. And they do tend to have an air of superiority, because *they* are totally committed to and following God 100% (which implies the rest of us, who have problems or such like that, are not).

You know, that sounds like the attitude that I encountered at the Spanish Pentecostal church I attended for a few years. I can't find the words to describe it. I'd never actually heard Gothard mentioned at that church. But they kind of looked down on those people who would take a night job or night classes instead of sticking with a dead end day job and attending church 6 days a week. Those people were viewed as being less reliant on God or something. I was in college at the time, and they kept saying or implying that it would be better for me spiritually to be at church all the time and in the ministry...um, I had bills to pay and was working afternoons/evenings plus had homework to do. I came to church when I could, but man did I feel guilty, like I was less of a Christian for getting a degree.