Bill Gothard

Originally Posted by Rabbit

Many of the families that use him don't advocate for him the way Ezzo's followers do. You begin to realize that "oh wow, that's a Gothard family" only after you get up close and personal with the weirdness. Very fundamentalist homeschoolers are almost always Gothard families.

Actually, I first heard about Gothard when we began attending a very relaxed Southern Baptist church...not fundatmental at all. I had gone to a fundamental school and church when I was younger and had never heard of him there. I've seen his stuff in non-denominational churches and my brother got into his stuff from a not fundamental church.

As I've said before, Gothard's Character First and Character Counts stuff is in a great deal of public school systems throughout the country...

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/...rd/general.htm

This link provides quite a bit of information on the different groups (religous and otherwise) which support Gothard's teachings.

Blesings,
Trishy

[ChristmasGirl]

that's funny...i almost linked to that article too. the end of the article has some very interesting thoughts about problems with "gothardism" for anyone who is interested.

about the righteous anger, i really don't remember, it's been probably 15 years since i've been to one of his seminars. i have his books in my crawl space but they're not easy to get to. so maybe someone else would remember what he says about that.

[Rabbit]

Originally Posted by Trishy

Actually, I first heard about Gothard when we began attending a very relaxed Southern Baptist church...not fundatmental at all. I had gone to a fundamental school and church when I was younger and had never heard of him there. I've seen his stuff in non-denominational churches and my brother got into his stuff from a not fundamental church.

As I've said before, Gothard's Character First and Character Counts stuff is in a great deal of public school systems throughout the country...

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/...rd/general.htm

This link provides quite a bit of information on the different groups (religous and otherwise) which support Gothard's teachings.

Blesings,
Trishy

I think we have different definitions of fundamentalist.

Gothard teaches that children are to obey parents even when they know God's will is something different. He teaches that there should be an unquestioning accountability to the authority of parents, even after the child moves into adulthood, and even if the parents are unsaved (cf. Psa. 1).25 This includes the requirement that both sets of parents consent unanimously in their son's or daughter's selection of marriage partners, again, even if the parents are both pagans. Failure to obey this requirement, according to Gothard, will always lead to future marriage problems (see Rebuilder's Guide, pp. 78, 110, 154, 224, 235). (He also teaches that women are always to obey their husbands instead of God in matters of conscience.)



That came from the link that was already mentioned in this thread.

How does Gothard handle the existence of abusive authority?

wow. just wow. I guess it takes all kinds. And I don't see the appeal - except for what pp have already said - that people like a clear cut do A get B as a result pattern for their lives.

Originally Posted by debf

I will admit that I have always been confused by people who claim that the Bible can guide us in every part of our lives. The Bible doesn't tell me such things as how to schedule a newborn's feeding-or if I should-, or what battles with my kids are importatant to fight and when I should just let go. KWIM?

So, why do the Pearl's, Gothard, etc claim that the Bible can be used to basically micromanage how people parent?

I think the Bible does have principles for guiding almost every aspect of our daily living. I think I would just have very different Biblical principals than Pearls/Gothards?Ezzo's (from what I know of them). It is just reading the same book through totally different filters.

I also think that Titus 2 is the basis for what they use to tell people how to parent. And fwiw, when properly applied, I think Titus 2 can be a wonderful way for new parents to learn from their (often) wiser elders. But I also find that most older people that I know mellow towards children as they age, and so are more likely to guide you toward gentle instruction and discipline than punitive parenting. Not always true, but so often I find it is.

[ncsweetpea]

As a teen, I was involved in a fundamental SBC church--before I even knew that there was any other kind of church--and we were all encouraged to attend his institute. The appeal for me then was it was clear cut, easy to understand, his system fit neatly together like building blocks stacked upon one another and there were NO gray areas. That appealed to me as a young person...it helped to give my fledgling faith a shape. As I got older and experienced more "real life" I saw holes in his theories and had questions that simply couldn't be answered by his teachings. I eventually threw away my big Gothard book and it felt good!

Originally Posted by Rabbit

I think we have different definitions of fundamentalist.

Probably ...but the article is very factual and laden with a timeline of the Gothard movement not only as it pertains to religious circles but to secular circles, as well. So, it doesn't matter which definition you go by for the secular groups. I hope everyone reads it.


Blessings,
Trishy

[Wonder Woman]

it reminds me of when someone I know personally joined a cult - he walked into his office and announced to his coworkers "I'm all set! I never have to worry about another decision in my life. As long as I do what ______ says, I know I'm going to Heaven."

[Soliloquy]

Very fundamentalist homeschoolers are almost always Gothard families.

Well that explains why I'd never heard of him. I don't know a single fund. homeschooling family, in fact, I never even met a homeschooling family IRL until a few years ago.

[Zipporah]

Originally Posted by debf

How does Gothard handle the existence of abusive authority?

He doesn't seem to believe in that kind of a concept.

[ChristmasGirl]

How does Gothard handle the existence of abusive authority?

i don't remember exactly what he teaches, but i do know that the general teaching is that God will deal with the authority in some way, but you are to remain and trust God to deal with it. it's the "touch not the Lord's annointed" spiel. We had to read Spiritual Authority by watchman nee... :/ same mindset.

[ChristmasGirl]

well, here is what i found online. however, he definitely stressed the obey your parents concept, even if they weren't believers, so i don't know how that jives with what he's saying here.

2. The principle of authority
Everyone is under certain God-ordained authorities, such as parents, government, and the church. The purpose of God-ordained authority is to provide protection, direction, instruction, and provision. Authorities have a duty to do what is right, and should never ask someone to do evil. When this does happen, the one under authority should make a wise appeal, with right motives, as Daniel did when he was asked to eat the king’s food, but never do wrong (Daniel 1:8–16).

When an authority, such as parents, for example, fail to demonstrate love and approval and be the example that God requires of them, and instead become angry, unreasonable, and condemning, it is easy for their children to reject all authority. Then, they often look to friends or individuals outside their family for their acceptance and approval. All too often, this outside influence leads them to decisions that create a new set of physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual problems. God understands the tendency for one in authority to fail. Therefore, He gives grace to those under authority to respond properly and grow in the character of Christ. However, if appeals are rejected, a person should always refuse to do evil, no matter who asks them to do it.

http://bill gothard.com/bill/about/whatiteach/ (remove spaces)

1. Gothard (as already said above) does not recognize abuse of authority. At all. To him, there is no such thing.
2. We are (us, personally, my family) a conservative, fundamental homeschooling family. And we don't use ATI.

[CelticJourney]

As a moderator, I would be much more comfortable with this discussion happening in the theology forum, but I'm not sure how many of the posters are active there, so I will leave it with a reminder that the main focus of this forum is parenting methods that are non-GBD.


Try as I might, my 'post flu which lead to a cold' brain can't find any of my old links to Gothard information. Please accept this information as coming from my memory and is open to correction as I find my 'stuff' later.

Gothard has a 'heaven on earth' everything in order kind of mindset that he believes can be achieved if only everyone will do what they are told, when they are told, happily. Unlike Ezzo or Tripp, Gothard's teaching include parenting as an aspect, but not the focus. His organizational structure includes 'inner circles' and 'outter circles'. His popularity in previous decades had to do more, in my opinion, with his packaging of legalism into pretty packages, with notebooks featuring character growth lessons featuring various animal symbolism, etc. that appealed to a consumer minded attitude.

Order and happy obedience are the keystones to everything and the outside reflects the inside. So yes, ladies, by his standards the level of organization of your kitchen cabinets does reflect your spiritual life as it reflects your servant heart for your family and your obedience to that call.

Children are to be born into 'good' Goddard families and raised to be an 'army for God'. By contrast adoption is discouraged because you might bring in the 'sins of the father' and curse your home (let me take an adoptive mother moment before I continue).

As with Ezzo and Pearl, Gothard believes that he has 'every answer' to 'every question' and while he will claim that it comes directly from scripture, it is filtered through his personal variety of legalism rather than an understanding of the gift of grace or freedom in Christ.



A word about homeschooling and ATI - it is a regional thing, if I understand it correctly. I am in the south, have homeschooled for over 10 years and only met one family that I could say was ATI and they were involved with it before they moved here. Being an hour or so away from BJU, I can assure you that you can have legalism without ATI.

[Beauty4Ashes]

I apologize. I posted not knowing much about him, except hearing about his parenting methods. I didn't mean for it to turn into a theological discussion.