Could Some Forms Of Punitive Parenting Lead To Creating A Sociopath?

[deena]

Originally Posted by elcollins

I think we need to take great care with this issue. 'Some forms of puntive parenting' is such a wide stretch. I think it is safe to say that punitive parenting that is clearly abusive would have emotional and psycological effects on children, but I think this may have far too big of a gray zone to be manageable or come to any conclusions.

FTR, I was talking about abuse. I'm sure the OP could change the word punitive to "abuse" if it's that controversial. I think we are all in agreement that, that is what we are talking about.

[Lantern Light Mama]

I agree, punitive is a big umbrella, so abuse would be a more fitting term for this.

[jenny_islander]

Sociopathy is a recognized disorder, probably arising from a defect in the brain, that includes such deficits as: inability to recognize that saying one thing and doing another will not cover up the deed with words; need for excitement; flattened emotional landscape; lack of conscience. According to The Sociopath Next Door, the incidence of sociopathy appears to be lower in cultures that place high value on conformity and assign a place to everyone. Basically, although the sociopath still wants to do things that would be convenient to him or her regardless of their effect on other people, the consequences to him are high enough that if he is smart*, he is careful not to rock the boat. A physically and socially mobile society such as ours allows more room for the sociopath to maneuver and more ways for him to escape the consequences of his actions.

Ann Rule is a true-crime writer, not a psychologist, but she has made extensive study of sociopaths for her work. She hypothesizes that it isn't the sociopaths who are made worse by abuse, although that certainly doesn't help; it's the children who feel things deeply and have a strong sense of right and wrong who are more likely to be bent by persistent abuse, including abuse presented as discipline or child training. These children conclude that if the world approves of the things that are done to them (which must be true if their parents do it), then the whole world is against them and they are justified in whatever they do. They enter adulthood with an enormous sense of entitlement fueled by hate and anguish. Or they never get the chance to develop their inborn consciences to the point of reflection on these issues because they are entirely focused on survival.



*And socipaths can be of sub-normal intelligence. The book mentions one man who spent a lot of time in jail because he liked to rob post offices and see the people run around; that was his way to scratch his itch for excitement. He never got away with it, but he still did it--because for him, it was so fulfilling that it was worth the jail time.

[Soliloquy]

I only skimmed the replies so sorry if I'm repeating but you would probably be interested in reading books by Alice Miller. The one I read, For Your Own Good, dealt w/ this topic specifically and she did a lot of research on the Nazis and the regular German populace who went along w/ them willingly. It's very difficult to read--not because of the writing or vocabulary, but because it's just so icky to think about how awful humans can be.

Anyway, after reading that book I would say yes, that the more extreme versions of punitive parenting can create sociopaths. Perhaps if a young child was biologically inclined that way already it wouldn't even have to be extreme.

[deena]

Originally Posted by LisaM

I only skimmed the replies so sorry if I'm repeating but you would probably be interested in reading books by Alice Miller. The one I read, For Your Own Good, dealt w/ this topic specifically and she did a lot of research on the Nazis and the regular German populace who went along w/ them willingly. It's very difficult to read--not because of the writing or vocabulary, but because it's just so icky to think about how awful humans can be.

Anyway, after reading that book I would say yes, that the more extreme versions of punitive parenting can create sociopaths. Perhaps if a young child was biologically inclined that way already it wouldn't even have to be extreme.

that'll go on my wish list. Thanks for the tip.

Originally Posted by JoyInTheSpirit

I agree, punitive is a big umbrella, so abuse would be a more fitting term for this.

Yes, that is what I meant. Sorry. Darn, if you could all read my minds there would be no problem. I forgot that you weren't all psychic

Actually I would probably reword it to say abuse, specifically some of the parents who take Ezzo and Pearl to an extreme.

Jenny Islander, that was very interesting.

I have an example in my own family of "sociopath". And, it's not at all what one would think. And, yes, they do look normal. They act normal. They are actually very smart and very charming. It's not all what you would think. There are a few telling things. . . . like, a lack of empathy or sympathy (not too obvious, but there). No awareness of personal space. Their genuine confusion when called on something they may have done wrong. And total lack of response to it. It's actually rather chilling, but only if you *know*.

[deena]

Originally Posted by Chris3jam

I have an example in my own family of "sociopath". And, it's not at all what one would think. And, yes, they do look normal. They act normal. They are actually very smart and very charming. It's not all what you would think. There are a few telling things. . . . like, a lack of empathy or sympathy (not too obvious, but there). No awareness of personal space. Their genuine confusion when called on something they may have done wrong. And total lack of response to it. It's actually rather chilling, but only if you *know*.

. I posted on GCM a while back about someone with "antisocial personality disorder" and was jumped on by a lot of people- psychology majors no less- who were convinced that sociopaths were those kids who kill animals and such. They are far more complex and charming than just that category.

Originally Posted by deena

. I posted on GCM a while back about someone with "antisocial personality disorder" and was jumped on by a lot of people- psychology majors no less- who were convinced that sociopaths were those kids who kill animals and such. They are far more complex and charming than just that category.

My 25 yo son falls into this category. He will play cruel and dangerous practical jokes on people. . . .but is convinced he is being funny, and seriously does not understand why or how it is not funny. He has no awareness of personal space. He is calmly and cooly self-absorbed. He thinks everyone is like this. He reminds me of the boy who brutally killed a girl because, in his own mind, she "led him on" (she didn't), and didn't give him what he wanted. And he asked, as he was being led out of the courtroom, "Why are they crying?! [the girl's family] *I* am the one going to jail!". I am not sure if he ever would go that far. . . .but, it's the *same* kind of mindset. He *has* kicked down a door (calmly and matter-of-factly) because things just weren't going his way. It is a matter of great heart-ache and guilt that I helped make him this way. What he suffered at my hands very much contributed to exacerbating whatever pre-existing condition he had, which condition actually the cause of me treating him the way I did (no, I am not excusing my actions. . . I *should* have known better).

Originally Posted by Chris3jam

My 25 yo son falls into this category. He will play cruel and dangerous practical jokes on people. . . .but is convinced he is being funny, and seriously does not understand why or how it is not funny. He has no awareness of personal space. He is calmly and cooly self-absorbed. He thinks everyone is like this. He reminds me of the boy who brutally killed a girl because, in his own mind, she "led him on" (she didn't), and didn't give him what he wanted. And he asked, as he was being led out of the courtroom, "Why are they crying?! [the girl's family] *I* am the one going to jail!". I am not sure if he ever would go that far. . . .but, it's the *same* kind of mindset. He *has* kicked down a door (calmly and matter-of-factly) because things just weren't going his way. It is a matter of great heart-ache and guilt that I helped make him this way. What he suffered at my hands very much contributed to exacerbating whatever pre-existing condition he had, which condition actually the cause of me treating him the way I did (no, I am not excusing my actions. . . I *should* have known better).

because I don't know what else to say...