Somethings' bothering me

[Epieikeia]

Because I can't find much that holds children to a high standard and is not permissive, but doesn't use switching or spanking. So, I'm looking for training ideas that don't include switching.

I don't believe in high standards because none of us in our imperfect state can reach them without going crazy (believe me, I've tried).

I do believe in realistic expectations though and I get that from both my foster kiddos and bio kiddos via GBD.

And BTW, I believe in behaviorism, at least up to a point. People do moderate their behavior based largely on what responses they get. That is why I shave my armpits and style my hair and wear lipstick.

Obviously as described, yes. However behaviorism is mainly the external. You are so stuck on that---what about the internal? Does that matter or is it only what the desired external outcome that matters?

Behaviorism cannot change the heart or produce GOD-PLEASING behavior and isn't that what we want? We want our children to not just "look" good to the world, but to live for God.

As the mother of PKs...this is an huge issue for me.

[katiekind]

Regarding being a follower of Christ....he is a professing believer. Let's leave it at that.

I'm looking for training ideas that don't include switching.

This statement has caught my attention every time you've used it. I know we tend to be a little jumpy about the word "trained" but it's not a bad word at all. I *do* think it's important to know what we mean by it.

There is a difference between discipling and conditioning. Pearl is extremely articulate about the fact that he is all about behavioral conditioning. He uses the word more than once in the early chapters of his first book. He makes it clear that the child can and should be forced to display certain behaviors even before they're able to understand why.

Discipling is about spiritual leadership. You can't disciple a tree or a dog. You have to have a relationship with a person... you're leading, guiding, teaching, and helping them to grow. It's not about how they act or don't act... it's about what they KNOW, feel, believe, and internalize. ETA: (And from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks... inside-to-outside... not the other way around)

When I started learning GBD I spent a *lot* of time feeling frustrated, disillusioned, disappointed, and doubtful. I even felt angry and judgemental at times. I was trying to use GBD "tools" and techniques to weild the same *type* of influence (e.g. power), the same brand of control, and to reap the same external results (controlled kids) as what I had expected from punitive parenting. It wasn't working. I didn't really GET the relationship-centered, FIRM, age-appropriate authority thing yet (and some days still don't ) I was simply trying to use "gentle" techniques to control my kids and make them behave. I found that I had quickly slipped into the realm of threatening and manipulating, or that I swung back and forth from punitive to permissive. It's a pretty common experience for people who are coming from where I was. My ideas and goals and attitudes about my kids had to change before gentle parenting started to make any sense, and I've change a lot even in how I understand GBD/GD. (I was probably very permissive and over-cautious at first, trying so hard not to be punitive... now I think/hope I'm moving to a more balanced and healthy middle ground where authority is firm and consistent)

All that to say....

*WHAT* do you want to train your kids to do or be? I will be the first to assert that controlling their behavior simply cannot be achieved without punishment (or with it, IME). But I've also come to believe that it's not my job to control, but rather to lead, guide, protect, teach, and shepherd.

ETA: and this is just my opinion.. other members may disagree.. but when you do see advice that falls outside of GBD here you probably will see permissive more often than punitive, b/c punitive is clearly defined and restricted. Also b/c those of us "recovering" form permissive parenting often do swing toward permissive before we come back to a balanced middle ground. Permissive advice is not supported, of course, but it's hard to quantify and define it, and therefore hard to effectively restrict it.

Originally Posted by ServantofGod

Because I can't find much that holds children to a high standard and is not permissive, but doesn't use switching or spanking. So, I'm looking for training ideas that don't include switching.

Well, here are two references, one specific to child-rearing and one about training in general: Easy To Love, Difficult to Discipline is about child-rearing. Don't Shoot The Dog is an excellent guide to behavioristic training, and is clear about the author's high standards for behavior in people as well as other organisms, and the reasons why the author believes that punishment, and negative reinforcement in general, are ineffective and have highly undesirable side effects.

The Pearls training advice is really bad, from a behaviorist standpoint.

[katiekind]

Palil,

That was a very insightful and informative post.

This has been a good discussion...helpful in many ways.

[hsgbdmama]

See, I don't understand this at all. This is why I can't manage the examination of every word. I don't know if you are saying the correct translation is this, or that Pearl is saying this, but it doesn't make a bit of sense to me either way. The only way it makes a bit of sense is like this:

Thou = You
shalt = must
beat = to strike
him = the subject of the command
with a rod = the implement with which to strike

The reason we have a Bible that has been translated into English is so that English-speaking people don't need to try to find some way to interpret Hebrew. The far-more-schollarly-than-I translators studied the words in Hebrew and said, "This is how it is translated - Thou shalt beat him with a rod..."

Here are the problems with this logic, from a Pearl standpoint:

(1) There is one word in Greek for rod, while there are three (3) in Hebrew. The Hebrew word used in these passages is "shebet," and you can find more discussion on this site or some of the other sites referenced on GCM in regards to this. In brief, a shebet is a 6' long stick (i.e., roughly a broom handle). If we are going to use a rod, then we need to use a rod -- we cannot take some of the verse literally (beat) but then other parts figuratively (get to choose the implement). This is what Pearl and the like do, and that is wrong, IMHO.

(2) Pearl goes only by the Greek (in CTBHHM, Debi brags about how MP studies his **three** Greek Bibles daily), and not the Hebrew. BIG difference.

So "translating into English" doesn't do it alone, as some translators might be erroneous in their translations, as well as the meaning of English words change over time; in some cases, they needed to add words because the literal translation from Greek to English ends up not making much sense. This is why we should use reputable study resources to better understand the meanings and the original words.

[Epieikeia]

As far as the translation goes, I understand your frustration. My dh has 8 years of Greek and Hebrew training that he uses actively in the ministry. I appreciate that the pastors in my denom are taught the original languages as it adds color sometime to an area of Scripture that may be grayscale.

I do believe one does fine with just an English translation, but having the idea expounded out in the Hebrew/Greek is very cool to. Of course, I didn't always feel that way--in early marriage it made me feel inferior--but now I see it as a tool to understanding the Word better and I know my dh well enough to know he respects my spiritual perspective on many issues.

On an issue such as what does the "rod" mean, the orginal language as well as the understanding of the different types of language styles in God's Word are useful for understanding those few Proverbs verses in context. I didn't read a ton on-line about the rod...rather dh and I did our own study and came to the conclusion that the rod is figurative, not literal.

[milkmommy]

I guess I'm confused on what you mean by training?? We teach we have standards mine are actually much higher than many of my more punitive mates. IF I see behavior that needs improvment we address it and work on improving it. What I don't do is 1) set her up to fail I will not stick a gun on the counter and train her not to touch it I will not sit her infront of an open door and switch her or repremend her for trying to go outside 2) I won't demand she act older than she is I expect my DD to act like a mature 3 year old soon to be 4 I will be expecting more from her this yer than last I will however not train her to act like I want her to be at say 10 or 14 etc cause shes not there yet.
What "training" do we do?
We practice safety crossing the street holding hands in public places etc (talked about it earlier) how we'd take family walks talk about how X was important we'd practice stopping at intersections we role play "if daddy goes across the street do you run over" we remin their to pull heer back to try again to be there for her.. The results she will NOT run into a street she'll stay she will say I need to hold hands. If we get seperated she stops and says I'm not safe hold my hand please. She does this with other grown ups also.

We practice behavior in public places we go to groccery stores banks etc when we have nothing or very little to get we talk about why one would come what the rules are how she needs to tell me if she needs something, how to accept a no or be thankful for a yes. We role play again give her confidence and let her know were on her team result we can go on long groccery trips to walmart where ever and things go fine. I hold the responsiblity on not pusing things and keeping her age in mind she complies with me because she knows I will repect her.

We practice manners at home we model we give words we say no when we we feel she needs to ask correctly and see to it she does. result shes petty good with the may I's pleases thankyous etc

We practive listening skills we play games. Okay turn around jump and shout horray! now touch your toes count to three and put this plate on the table. everyone gets a turn no one gets punished for messing up as a result she has great listening skills and can follow multi step commands with no issues. Honey please go upstairs and bring the green cup and plate down from mommy's room put whatever left on the plate into the trash and put the plate and cup into the sink. Thank you... "Okay mommy" (and does it)

Are we working on some things? sure for example she great at listening when she wants but weve also entered to NO! stage she even says it when shes doing what we want sometimes we are addressing that we aren't punishing it but we in no way are ingnoring it eaither.

I think one of the biggest diffrences between what we do and Michels way is we don't set up battle. Yes I'm in authority I will firmly say NO and I will physically restrain her from harm if needed. And while I don't believe my child to be sinless neither do I believe

(from low self esteem)

As a member of the human race he tends towards laziness, rebellion, stubbornness, self-will, manipulation, dominance, pride, and one hundred other bad words.

Deanna

Thanks, Kathy.

I'm off to the state fair to ride the tilt-a-whirl with my kiddos!

[Mother of Sons]

I don't think this is a fair assumption of me. How could you possibly know what I would want to do?

I said that based on the fact that IIRC you used to spank/still spank (not sure which) the fact that I do not spank but wanted to with him and the fact that almost everyone who saw him thought he was undisciplined and should be spanked.

If I'm being honest, I do think some advice here is permissive. Some is punitive. It's the nature of message boards I think. It's all on a spectrum.

I do think the girl you described did not behave properly. The mother should have been close enough to come get her immediately because she was being disruptive to the class. If it would have been me and there were other people available (I think you said there were) I would have had 2 other people take her out of the class, even if they had to wait in the hall with her screaming and crying. That's just me. To me assuming positive intent doesn't mean the intent was always positive. I've seen it used that way and I don't agree, but again, that's just me. I don't know why the girl was screaming. Could be because she doesn't get proper discipline, could be because she was embarrassed at being reprimanded. I once reprimanded a boy at my house and he cried so hard that an abulance was called. It turned out that he was just embarrassed. I wasn't mean, he was just sensitive.

I do have high standards in general. I think standards are important. I don't have high standards for every little thing. I focus on the big things. The things that matter the most. Little things IME are generally outgrown and don't need to be addressed in a big way. Getting nitpicky with issues is just discouraging to the kid because they know they can't measure up and they stop trying. Plus it's tiring to me and IME doesn't help.

I don't want them just behaving any old way they want and I won't let them. They are taught the expectations first and then we help them meet them. Ok, here's an example I guess. My 5 year old loves to belch. He's good at it and very loud. He thinks it's great. I HATE IT. My standard is that he not belch at the dinner table or in front of other people. If he does and it wasn't necessary, I remind him. If he does it again, he leaves the table. If he's off playing by himself or in his room belching his heart out, well, no problem.

The pearls think that you have to jump on every infraction, every single time or your kids will end up ruined. That's just not true. Find the things that are most important to you and relax with the rest. Spend more time building relationship and trust than disciplining. (which is NOT to say don't discipline) The more you compliment and connect, the less you have to critique. That's my philosophy anyways.

[ArmsOfLove]

I'm not even going to reply to the suggestion that Autism is an excuse. The growing number of children diagnosed with ASD is real and yet it's not an excuse. My child with autism behaves better than most children we encounter who are spanked.

Is the idea of "assigning a positive intent" supposed to mean that the child never has a negative intent???

NO, and I've explained this several times. It means I choose how to respond to someone and if they have a negative intent they will eventually reveal it, as the little girl in your story did. But I'm still going to respond to her as though she has a positive intent because otherwise I'm just attacking her and that doesn't lead to a solution. Ever hear of giving someone the benefit of the doubt for your own sanity? Same idea.

Let me tell you about something that recently happened. I didn't want to post this before, but I think I need to to ask the question. I was teaching a class of 3 and 4 year olds. One girl was fine and happy, but being a constant disruption by fiddling with her cousin. I told her several times she needed to put her hands on her lap, etc. Eventually, I told her she needed to move one seat over. She didn't move, so I sckooched her over. She dissolved in tears and screamed, "I want my mommy!" for the next 40 minutes. Many attempts were made by me and others to help her relax and join in the class, but she would only kick and lash out. No one could find her mother. She couldn't be moved on at the end of class, either. Finally, someone found her brother, who came and got her. When her brother appeared and put his arm around her, she instantly stopped crying and was triumphant in her face. Separately I was told by two other ladies that this is was her MO in every class LAST YEAR. She is fine until she is corrected or any limit is placed on her. Her class info card says that she is "sensitive to sugar", so I gather that her mother has heard of food issues and has aimed to find out what food(s) trouble her. Yet her behavior is still terrible.

I had situations like this all the time when I taught Sunday School. I would have left an assistant in charge and carried her from the room and let her know we'd return to the class as soon as she calmed down. I would not let a 4yo hold an entire classroom hostage

I'm actually quite frustrated by your assertion that GBD is permissive. I am the only one who can actually define it and I assure you it's not permissive. The moms here are learning about it and some moms are going to respond to posts more punitive and some more permissively. Joanne and I talk about she tends to do more straight forward solutions and I'm more comfortable posting theory and helping people understand GBD and their children. I know that some of the GBD pros here fall along that spectrum on one end or the other as well. I don't know what level of perfection you are expecting of us here

[CelticJourney]

I had situations like this all the time when I taught Sunday School. I would have left an assistant in charge and carried her from the room and let her know we'd return to the class as soon as she calmed down. I would not let a 4yo hold an entire classroom hostage

[/quote]

I totally agree. I'm the person that's called into a room of disruptive children when they need help and a firm hand - no one considers me permissive irl My girls (8 and 11) are constantantly being complimented on their behavior and attitude to the point of being asked to participate in adult dominated activities, such as plays, because they can be counted on. We have not been given the additional learning/growth opportunities that special needs present (apparently God has different challenges for us) but I wouldn't do anything different if they had - GBD is about meeting them where they are and lifting them up from there.

Honestly, I have a problem with this portion of the discussion, though. First there is the assumption that you know how this child is parented. Some of the children I have seen have the worst behavor are those who are punitively parented. Often to the point that the teachers won't tell the parent for fear of their reaction to the child (one family in my homeschool group comes to mind - thier 5yo has some behavior issues at church but I know what they would do to him if I said so, so when they ask I lie ). Perhaps the only attention this child receives is that which she has to work for - we can go round and round about this one child and never know anything about what is motivating her behavior because we only have a glimse into her life. Anyway, I would have done what Crystal stated and handled the issue as gently and firmly as possible.

I am just confused as to why, if you say you are not considering spanking, you are pondering the teachings of a person whose dominate discipline form is switching and terrifing children into submission and calling it 'love'. Perhaps Leman would be a better 'middle of the road' alternative - he is certainly not GBD, but I don't consider him abusive either?


Camille, cheesecake on the rollercoaster (of course, now I want cheesecake.. )

I am just wondering how many people who spank actually do use the Bible as their reference (not just one or two verses?) - who actually have gone to scripture alone and decided to spank?

It seems there is more that follow a certain person or teaching than actually look to scripture themselves before deciding --and then use the famous rod verses as backing.


The reason I am asking is because of the confusion talked about in this thread surrounding the meaning of the rod verse...

TBH I would like to know how many people would find these verses if they were searching the scriptures for themselves???
If a new Christian thought to look to scripture for help in growing their children - would they stumble across a couple of verses here and there - would they wade through Proverbs and the OT and find one saying and think 'hmm I need to switch, hit, spank my 10mo for touching a vase?'

Would they look for what mention of childraising is there in the NT?

I honestly would like to know how someone who picked up the scriptures and researched it would go??

IMO stumbling across the verse - that has been dissected here - even if read in the English - would still have people going (as does much of the OT ) - what does that mean??

Just my thoughts

My BIL is arachnaphobic. He's irrationally terrified of spiders. No matter that he's 6'3 and could squash one with his pinky toe - he's scared to death of them. Now his 3-year-old is, too. He has picked up on his father's absolute terror of spiders.

Well. . .this first, since it struck me first. My dh is irrationally and terribly terrified of snakes. All of them- - no matter if they be dangerous or not. All of my children are fascinated by them. My 8 yo, in particular, is a miniature Steve Irwin. Now, their daddy has not made any attempt at hiding his fear and dread of snakes. He mentions it a lot. They see. . .they have seen it all of their lives. But. . .*they* are not afraid of snakes. And, as far as I can see, never will be.

There is nothing unkind or outrageous about expecting a child not to constantly giggle with, touch, poke, tickle, etc. another child in class. Why even have a class if the kids can just do what they want, go where they want, touch what they want, talk, sing or stand on their head whenever? Have you read the FIVE STEPS? Where you state, "You need to..." and "then help them."? I helped her control her interactions with her cousin because she (I suppose) couldn't control them for herselves.

We have a few of those kinds of children in our class. It is a 3-4 yo class, with about 20 + children and 8 leaders. There is one in particular that is “hyper”. Now, I am reasonably certain that all these children are spanked. . . our church is very pro spanking, and it is preached from the pulpit. We have children who tend to poke and irritate. . .and we head this off by separating them from the get-go. Everything is very organized and run well. We identify the children for who and what they are and deal with them individually, as according to what they need. I myself have held a crying child almost the whole period (his mom was a leader in the class, so she knew what was going on). As for kicking or hitting, I have restrained a child before more than once. I’ve held them in my lap and held them in a bear hug and moved on from there. We’ve also just left them alone and ignored the tantrum, not giving it the attention it wants (taking them out of the room). Some children, if you keep ‘bugging’ them, will keep acting out. Some need the cooling off period by just sitting away from the activity. We never force a child to join in an activity if they don’t want to (usually it’s a girl or two for game time). I’m just saying. . . .there has to be *something* going on.

And I agree with Crystal. I would not let a 3 or 4 yo hold a room hostage with their behaviour.

It is about being pro-active versus reactive.

And, I am deeply offended at the Bible study comment. "Study to shew thyself approved." Which is what I'm doing. It's there. . .it's fact. Black and white. It's what the Bible actually says, as the way the Jewish scribes wrote it, under inspiration of God. God-breathed. You didn't insult me. . . you insulted God. For that matter, every Bible scholar that knows the original language should be ashamed of themselves teaching that verse as a reason to spank. During the time it was translated, I would assume that they assumed that *everyone* knew that "rod" meant authority. Look it up in the concordance. In other words, "Consistantly and unrelenting expose them to the authority of God" = "Beat with the rod".

I keep thinking I need to leave this conversation. . . ..I fear I am being offensive and I don't want to be. I'm sorry. But, I have too many big feelings about this.

[Hermana Linda]

Originally Posted by milkmommy

I think it was this one http:// www.nogreaterjoy. org/
index.php?id=52&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=125&tx_ttne ws%5BbackPid%5D=24&cHash=c6560ac911d

That's the one. Thanks.