Created To Be His Help Meet by Debi Pearl *graphic content*

[hollybells]

Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove

Perhaps this is the Pearl-esque version of looking at things with positive intent???

Holly

(Forgive me if that's not actually as funny as it struck me. My migraine meds have killed the migraine, but sometimes leave my sense of humour a bit suspect! )

[Katigre]

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[TulipMama]

Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove

I'm wondering how this lines up with his counsel to a woman who's dh is in prison for child sexual abuse to not divorce him and to continue investing in the marriage. Maybe you're to turn him in and then keep investing in the marriage--how does one reconcile that???

To be honest, I don't think the Pearls do deal well with the issues related to abuse. Spunky addresses that to some degree here.

Sadly, abuse DOES occur in Christian homes, and pretending it doesn't or minimizing the reality of it, doesn't make it go away for the husbands, wives, and children involved.

[milkmommy]

Originally Posted by bliss

Well, where was she 7 years ago? If only I'd known Booger's father's treatment of me was due to my not being "reverent" enough, I could have changed everything! NOTE THE SARCASM!!

Ditto here.

Deanna

Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove

This wife is then warned that her command man dh will not take out the trash, have mercy on the sick and dying, or have any interest in hearing about her thoughts and ideas.

Regardless of your opinion about who should or shouldn't submit, this is a description of an abusive and controlling man :/

Exactly. My husband just read a blog post this past week where a woman was extolling the wonders of this book. Apparently she had written to Debi Pearl many years ago, and Debi Pearl sent her a response--a response that was harsh and ripped into her. But this woman was greatful for that! She creditted it with saving her marriage.

It made me think of someone who had posted on these boards 6 months or so ago about how she had written to Debi Pearl for advice about a difference of opinion she and her husband had regarding care of the family dog. Debi likewise ripped into her.

I thought back in the GCM case, and I commented to my husband in regards to the recent blog, that Debi responds like a bitter wife. She seems like someone who has been forced into a role that she doesn't really want...but she is trying to be super Christian about it. But her bitterness comes to the surface so easily. Perhaps the content of her messages to these two women was what they needed (though I didn't think so in the GCM case), but where does she get support in scripture for her tone? We are told to correct each other GENTLY. It is only when a brother or sister in Christ resists correction that we are to respond more forcefully.

Jenn

[hsgbdmama]

Originally Posted by Knitted_in_the_womb

I thought back in the GCM case, and I commented to my husband in regards to the recent blog, that Debi responds like a bitter wife. She seems like someone who has been forced into a role that she doesn't really want...but she is trying to be super Christian about it. But her bitterness comes to the surface so easily. Perhaps the content of her messages to these two women was what they needed (though I didn't think so in the GCM case), but where does she get support in scripture for her tone? We are told to correct each other GENTLY. It is only when a brother or sister in Christ resists correction that we are to respond more forcefully.

It basically goes along the lines of her advice I mentioned earlier: "Suck it up and deal with it." Sometimes that is what is needed, but it seems too often a one-size-fits-all response. You bring up a good point -- Scripture tells us to be content whatever our circumstances, and being bitter underneath is not contentment. But it goes back to their basic premise of "happy is the only acceptable emotion" doesn't it?

There are other solutions, we just need to pray for discernment as to what the best solution is in a particular situation.

[ArmsOfLove]

Originally Posted by TulipMama

To be honest, I don't think the Pearls do deal well with the issues related to abuse. Spunky addresses that to some degree here.

Sadly, abuse DOES occur in Christian homes, and pretending it doesn't or minimizing the reality of it, doesn't make it go away for the husbands, wives, and children involved.

Hmmmm I remember reading an article where he was telling a woman to stay married to an abuser I wonder where that was.

I think that the bible talks about this kind of stuff as stuff that looks close to the truth, even sounds good, but is contrary to what is true. Sort of like the anti christ will be to the real Christ..KWIM?

[Heidi_Suzanne]

Originally Posted by KatherineM

WOW! Did I read the same book? Yes, I did, but I defiantly didn't take it the way that it seems most did. Yes, there are things in the book that I didn't 100% agree with, but overall, I agreed with the book. It is addressed to women which is why it sounds like everything is the wife's fault..

why would that be a positive thing?...to state everything as if it were the wife's fault? not only is it inaccurate but it also plays nicely into an abusive dynamic.

Because we can only change OUR attitudes, OUR behavior.

knowledge is power. when a wife is able to see a situation for what it is, rather than continuing to believe that it's all her fault which almost invariably isn't true, she has within her grasp the power to make positive changes in her behavior. they may not be what pleases her husband if he's an abusive man but that doesn't mean they aren't good.

I mean if you put a sentence in there that makes a woman feel sorry for herself, the message of how to fix the situation with OUR behavior will be lost because many women will look at that one sentence and say, "see, I knew it wasn't MY fault".

first of all affirming a woman's feelings, esp. a woman caught in an abusive marriage, isn't going to make her feel sorry for herself necessarily. it could be empowering. gasp.

i understand where you are coming from though because that's exactly where i was 10 years ago, 5 years ago and 3 years ago. i was blinded by my own beliefs about what it meant to be a godly wife and as a result lived in an abusive dynamic. i could have made some changes which were fully within my circle of responsibility to make had i known better. unfortunately for my husband, children, church and myself i didn't until we had all suffered tremendous damage. i couldn't change my husband but i could change myself and my responses to his sinful choices. ptl, i finally did and we now have a much healthier family and marriage.

Also, the description of men, she states clearly that most men will be a little of all three. Some will be more Commando and very little dreamer etc.

i haven't read the book but the commando personality sounds very much like the drill Sergeant personality lundy bancroft describes in his book "why does he do that?" about angry and controlling men. i don't think it's an attitude sanctioned by god.

Personally, I have had this same discussion about Dr. Laura's book and what I am finding is that we don't like to hear where we need to change in clear cut terms. We want the sugar coated version.

i imagine there are some immature women out there who want that. but for the most part i think women are simply smart enough to see that debi pearl et al aren't the best source for info on how to be a good wife.

I am agreeing with Heidi.

I think the message in Created to Be... will reinforce abusive dynamics within Christian households (the ones that have the abusive dynamic.)

We were in a spiritual environment that encouraged this (about 15 years ago) and dh did become more controlling and abusive. Everything was put on my shoulders even when the blame was primarily his (you would think) the people who counciled us would turn the blame to me. I talked too much and I should never talk more than my husband (who is quiet, ha) and then I would try to heed their advice and they would turn around and say, "You're too quiet it makes your husband look bad because people think you're sad." I had to cook to please him and alter my tastes and personality to please him.

When I finally stood up for myself and created a boundary he became much nicer. In fact he's the opposite of what that legalistic system was creating.

I think the Pearls are a blight on the Christian landscape. They are creating bondage for women and children, encouraging sin and excess in men, and making us all the laughingstock of non-Christians who have a chance to observe this mess.

DB

[inesperada]

Hmmmm I remember reading an article where he was telling a woman to stay married to an abuser

I don't know exactly where it is either, but I've read it. Michael Pearl also seems to think that if a woman (or her children!) are abused by her husband she should turn the other cheek. :/

Yeah, I'll turn the other cheek and the other and other (that's three ) spin and give him a really good roundhouse kick.......not quite sure I could *reach* the upper cheeks and the lower cheeks aren't a good target, lets see....floating ribs....good.

Whatever, we weren't created to be....punching bags.

db

why would that be a positive thing?...to state everything as if it were the wife's fault? not only is it inaccurate but it also plays nicely into an abusive dynamic.

The fact remains on a book written to wives, it is going to sound like that the person who needs to change is the person reading the book. If they didn't think they needed to change, why not read the book?

Because we can only change OUR attitudes, OUR behavior.

knowledge is power. when a wife is able to see a situation for what it is, rather than continuing to believe that it's all her fault which almost invariably isn't true, she has within her grasp the power to make positive changes in her behavior. they may not be what pleases her husband if he's an abusive man but that doesn't mean they aren't good.

I think you're taking the small portion of marriages that are truly abusive and mirroring them on to the large proportion of marriages that aren't. For most of us, we can only change our attitudes and our behavior. It's not about thinking that everything is your own fault; it's on focusing what WE need to change and stop looking at the speck in our husband's eye. I don't see why this dynamic is ok with our children (positive intent and all that) but not ok with our husbands. I find this empowering. I don't have to wait around for my husband to change, but I don't have to enter into battle with him either.

I'm not advocating what the Pearls' teach; I've heard a lot of good reviews on the book; I, from the sample chapter, wasn't hung up on it. But I am seeing this thread develop a "submission= abusive dynamic" which I'm finding troubling. Even the phrase "abusive dynamic" is vague. Keep in mind that any embrace of traditional roles by a man can be seen in today's society as "abusive".

Sarah,

You would have a stronger point if Michael Pearl wrote a companion book, "Created to be a Lover as Christ Loves the Church."

But I'm not holding my breath.

db

[Can Dance]

Actually statistically speaking, marriages that continually harp on the submisison of the wife are much more likely to have spousal abuse.
and, in fact, among evangelicals anyway, the spousal abuse rate is THE SAME as society.

I drew all of my information from the latest Ron Sider book "Scandal of the Evangelical Conscience"

I am not saying it CAUSES abuse, but it doesn't help prevent it either.
C