Has Dobson ever said...

[Cook]

Originally Posted by ProudHooahWife

I think in order to really know what was meant we would not just have to look at the words but also the context in which the words were meant. I have read where he spoke about going on a date night once a week and it was a suggestion, take it or leave it just like in ANY parenting book we are not going to agree 100 percent on EVERYTHING kwim? I never have done exactly what he suggested but I also do not think going on a date is wrong. I believe that being a wife and mother is the highest calling. If we do not nurture our marriages they will suffer which will have a chain affect. Now about spouses being more important then kids, again what was the context....was he referring to the marriage triangle with God first, our spouse second, and kids next? If so this is scripturally based. It does not mean that you lay a starving baby to the side because hubby wants his feet rubbed. We are called to submit to our husbands though.

I think this leads to the bigger convo I've seen on this site about wife only submission? I honestly have NO idea how I feel on this. I have read the scriptures about wife submission but it's all written with complete husband submission to God as a prerequisite. At least that is how I've understood it. Husband submits to God, wife submits to husband. The understanding being that if the husband is truly honoring God, he will honor his wife if ways more holy than he could on his own. Honestly I believe that means honoring her instincts and ability to nurture. I don't think there is a good understanding in mainstream society today about the diversity of feminine calling. Even among Christians there is a huge emphasis on the sexual nature of a woman and not on the nurturing nature which I believe God divinely intended in His design of her.

Okay too much wrong direction there. I was a HUGE Dr. Laura fan for a long long time. Now I'd like to punch her. Like most anyone with a public voice, I like to think she means well and as you are saying about Dobson, a lot of those suggestions are "take it or leave it" advice from people who really feel strongly about their approach. However, I read her "Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands" when our first son was born and while I will ALWAYS want to make my man feel like a king, I really feel like the focus wasn't enough on proper communication and understanding the ACTUAL differences in men and women in those early years of child rearing.

Going out on a limb here- the biggest issue I have with placing marital relationship ABOVE parent child is that it gives young men, who are already taught NOTHING but the sexual aspect of their female partners, the idea that they should be jealous of the then formed nurture aspect of motherhood instead of combining forces to be involved directly in it. When you take the CIO aspects of various popular parenting models and combine it with NO breastfeeding education in schools, limited understanding of human development and anatomy and add in a woman's programed responses to infant cries etc, you get a young man who feels he should get his wife to calm down and work past her nerves when the baby cries and who is likely to feel cast aside if it doesn't happen that way. Idk if my own husband felt that way but I know it took him a while to even share with me that he didn't mind cosleeping. Turned out his hours were such that being able to snuggle with our lil bitty babies at night was a treat for him. I think we were both so hung up on how to NOT let our children interfere with our marriage It wasn't healthy for anyone really imo. Like none of the "experts" told us WHAT questions to ask. And that's really the most important part. Because the advice varies depending on what is important to you as a family.

I believe going on dates is good. I don't think anyone advocates against them. Adam and I did our fair share of that prekids so keeping some aspect of us in that is important imo. However, those who didn't go out much on dates before kids, might not need that. Like you said, take what works etc. I just can't help but think that part of God's instruction is because He KNOWS that if a family is communicating and working together, using the guidance Dad gets through his submission and the wife gets through her intuition, the children needs would be met in His way for sure. The problem is that you can't tell modern families to put that kind of effort into their marriage when modern society over sexualizes women and tells them that their children's needs are secondary and their own instincts are wrong.

[Housekat]

Now about spouses being more important then kids, again what was the context....was he referring to the marriage triangle with God first, our spouse second, and kids next? If so this is scripturally based. It does not mean that you lay a starving baby to the side because hubby wants his feet rubbed. We are called to submit to our husbands though.

ok <OT> WOS is not scriptural. It might look like it at first glance or cursory reading, but the fact remains that the relevant scriptures almost always talk about wifely submission in the context of everyone submitting to everyone in the Christian life. The paragraphs etc are a later addition to the text, so we really need to read around the verses that are quoted on this. </OT>

[CelticJourney]

We have several threads about Wife Only Submission in other forums. Lets leave this thread to discuss the teaching that some have put forward that parents come before children.

Unless there is some scriptural support for this idea, it seems a moot point at this time.

[verbatim]

The idea that the marriage relationship has to be forefront in a family with children was definitely taught at my church while I was growing up. I actually remember debating a college roommate about it. I told her that my husband would always come first, because that is the relationship that you have your entire life, is the cornerstone for the kids, etc. And my roomie, who was raised by a single mom, said she felt that the mother-child bond was more important. Our church didn't necessarily preach Dobson, but he definitely had a weekly column in The Christian Standard, which our church passed out like candy.

And as soon as my son was born, I realized that those arguments are fallacy. My love for my husband and my son is different in texture and in scope, but not in intensity. It's simplistic to suggest that I can't love and serve both, or that my husband can't accept our son's demands on my time. The hubby and I are in this parenting thing together. We're both giving up time and things we've previously enjoyed to invest in our son. I am annoyed when I reflect back on the rhetoric of my youth and so thankful for my gentle-spirited mother-in-law and sisters-in-law who taught me a better way to think of things.

[Hermana Linda]

Of course a strong marriage is good for the family. I don't hear anyone denying that. The thing is that babies and children are very needy and spouses are adults and can more handle the sacrifice of putting aside their needs for a time. So, a needy baby should be with his or her mama until s/he feels comfortable staying with someone else. A strong marriage can wait for a few years for alone time.

So, the idea that we are disputing is not that a strong marriage is important. The idea which we dispute is that a couple must leave the baby and have alone time. We say that a man and wife can nourish their marriage while the baby is present or sleeping in another room and wait until the children are older for romantic date-nights or vacations.

---------- Post added at 10:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 AM ----------

btw, the togetherness done while baby is present is totally different than that which is done while baby is sleeping in another room.

[BarefootBetsy]

I think that this whole premise is a false dichotomy. I think that people (in general) have the idea that either the children must come first to the detriment of the husband or vice versa. I don't think that has to be the case at ALL. Honestly, why can't the husband help the wife meet the children's needs and her needs so that she's also able to meet his needs?

I just don't understand why there can't be a "working together" mentality instead of the children's relationship with the mother being perceived as opposing the father's relationship with the mother. Shouldn't the father desire his children to have a strong bond with their mother? Shouldn't the father desire his children to have a strong bond with himself too?

The marriage relationship is extremely important, but if it becomes elevated to the level of causing harm to the mother-child relationship (which will be figured differently depending on the child's age, of course), I think that's not right. Adults are adults. They can handle some delayed gratification - certainly better than a baby or toddler can!

Date nights, as nice as they are, are not a NEED (I suppose they could be for some people but I don't think they are a NEED for most people), they are a WANT and a baby or toddler's NEEDS should always trump an adult's WANTS. Now... taking our children on "date nights" and then putting them to bed early so there's alone time afterwards... that's a good compromise my husband and I have come up with to satisfy the adults' wants and needs as well as the children's wants and needs.

I just don't understand why it has to be so adversarial... Father vs. children. Why? Sure there's a limited amount of time... but if parents work together to meet the children's needs, the time left for the parents together can be extended quite a lot!

[Hermana Linda]

Well, yeah.

And now you have the beginning of a great post.

Originally Posted by Hermana Linda

I'm wondering which verse this is based on.

The marriage triangle.....

“Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.” All of one’s heart, soul, and strength is to be committed to loving God, making Him the first priority. Deuteronomy 6:5

If a person is married then their spouse comes next......Ephesians 5:25

Here is an example a husband should follow: God first, then his wife. In the same way, wives are to submit to their husbands “as to the Lord” Ephesians 5:22. The principle is that a woman’s husband is second only to God in her priorities.

If husbands and wives are second only to God in our priorities, and since a husband and wife are one flesh Ephesians 5:31, it stands to reason that the result of the marriage relationship—children—should be the next priority. Parents are to raise godly children who will be the next generation of those who love the Lord with all their hearts Proverbs 22:6 and Ephesians 6:4, showing once again that God comes first. All other family relationships should reflect that.

I have seen several ask for scriptures I am sorry I did not include them in my first post I didn't realize that was the norm

Originally Posted by Cook

I think this leads to the bigger convo I've seen on this site about wife only submission? I honestly have NO idea how I feel on this. I have read the scriptures about wife submission but it's all written with complete husband submission to God as a prerequisite. At least that is how I've understood it. Husband submits to God, wife submits to husband. The understanding being that if the husband is truly honoring God, he will honor his wife if ways more holy than he could on his own. Honestly I believe that means honoring her instincts and ability to nurture. I don't think there is a good understanding in mainstream society today about the diversity of feminine calling. Even among Christians there is a huge emphasis on the sexual nature of a woman and not on the nurturing nature which I believe God divinely intended in His design of her.

Okay too much wrong direction there. I was a HUGE Dr. Laura fan for a long long time. Now I'd like to punch her. Like most anyone with a public voice, I like to think she means well and as you are saying about Dobson, a lot of those suggestions are "take it or leave it" advice from people who really feel strongly about their approach. However, I read her "Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands" when our first son was born and while I will ALWAYS want to make my man feel like a king, I really feel like the focus wasn't enough on proper communication and understanding the ACTUAL differences in men and women in those early years of child rearing.

Going out on a limb here- the biggest issue I have with placing marital relationship ABOVE parent child is that it gives young men, who are already taught NOTHING but the sexual aspect of their female partners, the idea that they should be jealous of the then formed nurture aspect of motherhood instead of combining forces to be involved directly in it. When you take the CIO aspects of various popular parenting models and combine it with NO breastfeeding education in schools, limited understanding of human development and anatomy and add in a woman's programed responses to infant cries etc, you get a young man who feels he should get his wife to calm down and work past her nerves when the baby cries and who is likely to feel cast aside if it doesn't happen that way. Idk if my own husband felt that way but I know it took him a while to even share with me that he didn't mind cosleeping. Turned out his hours were such that being able to snuggle with our lil bitty babies at night was a treat for him. I think we were both so hung up on how to NOT let our children interfere with our marriage It wasn't healthy for anyone really imo. Like none of the "experts" told us WHAT questions to ask. And that's really the most important part. Because the advice varies depending on what is important to you as a family.

I believe going on dates is good. I don't think anyone advocates against them. Adam and I did our fair share of that prekids so keeping some aspect of us in that is important imo. However, those who didn't go out much on dates before kids, might not need that. Like you said, take what works etc. I just can't help but think that part of God's instruction is because He KNOWS that if a family is communicating and working together, using the guidance Dad gets through his submission and the wife gets through her intuition, the children needs would be met in His way for sure. The problem is that you can't tell modern families to put that kind of effort into their marriage when modern society over sexualizes women and tells them that their children's needs are secondary and their own instincts are wrong.

Annie you need to look at more then one verse at a timem there are several....it is not a well if he submits then I will we are called SEPERATE to submit. Our husbands are called to submit to God. We are called to submit to our husbands it is not a tit for tat or if you will I will. We are each responsible for our 100 percent kwim.

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. Ephesians 5:22

Notice it does not say IF he is submitting to the Lord.

For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Ephesians 5:23

Remember what was said in Genesis after the fall that he would rule over Eve?

Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Ephesians 5:24

Now for the husbands......

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body,[d] of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh

Ephesians 5:25-31

This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. Ephesians 5:32

Notice the commands to a wife and husband were seperate and NOT based upon what the other was doing. Submit and respect for a woman to her husband.

Now lets look at some other scriptures.....

Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. 1 Peter 3:7

Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

1 Peter 2:25-3:2

An excellent wife is the crown of her husband,
but she who brings shame is like rottenness in his bones. Proverbs 12:4

Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them. Colassians 3: 18-19

Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. Titus 2:3-5


Annie how does places the husband first teach a child to be jealous? It is teaching a child to follow what the Lord has laid out. I am just kinda wondering where you got that. Breastfeeding education should NOT be done in schools. It should be done at home. I don't think sex ed should be taught in schools either. There are ways to still meet a babes needs and put your husband first and still be an AP parent. I am very AP and yet I still am called to submit to my husband. Communication is key and talking and sharing with each other, the husband is called to love his wife and to treat her as the weaker vessel. It isn't a ticket to control every breath.

[Cook]

I'm heading to bed but will return in the morning. As I mentioned, this wife only submission thing is highly debated else where on this site. However, regardless of my stance on that, I'd never condone tit for tat in a marriage or with God?

I think it's easy to come to a place like this and not fully understand how our own background and stance can color our perception of things. Maybe I'm too negative? But I was not very AP and did not consider it mainstream. And I do, very much so, understand how people who have no understanding of human growth and normal development could be very easily misguided by literature that doesn't focus on ALL aspects of God's instruction for child rearing.

---------- Post added at 11:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 PM ----------

Teaching the HUSBAND to be jealous!! Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. I am sure young men go into parenting less prepared than they were even a few generations ago. And I do think that if they already have a misguided understanding of what babies will need, combined with an over sexualiztion of women in our culture, it can drive them to mixed emotions including jealous as they become parents.

---------- Post added 04-06-2011 at 12:38 AM ---------- Previous post was 04-05-2011 at 11:10 PM ----------

Btw, I'm loving chapter 3 of the kindle Grace Based Living book for this very subject. Not helping me get to sleep though lol

I am confused. I realize that elsewhere the subject on submission is debated but that was included in my example of the triangle...it is interwoven and you had addressed my post so I was posting scripture. I was addressing what you said as husband submission being a prerequisite to a wife submitting. I am not trying to cause a conflict, I am just trying to clear up what I had said and address your post in this thread.

I am also not saying if I agree with Dobson or not in here, all I was addressing in the beginning is it is really hard to take ONE part of a book and address it without knowing the context.

Why do you think that husbands go into parenting less prepared then ever before? That should honestly be something that is taught growing up IN THE HOME, not in schools etc but I am not seeing men being less prepared in fact I see many men being more invloved then before. I mean years ago men did not go into delivery rooms but now they do. Sometimes it is really hard to seperate personal experience with what is a fact and I am not saying it is a fact they are more prepared or less or not. That is why I asked based on what are you drawing that conclusion kwim. Again not trying to cause conflict but I am still confused! LOL

[Wonder Woman]

I know I (and quite a few of the moms here) find marriage/family life to be best illustrated by a circle

God is the center of *everything* we do - not a hierarchy of God>Husband>Wife>Children. Every time I was shown that diagram as a child, it made me feel like my parents were between me and God, you know? If it's a circle, then as a wife I am as close to God as I am to my husband and my children.
My husband is as close to God as he is to me and our children.
My children not only have no one standing between them and God, but they are cherished as equal members of the family, not as the lowest on the family totem pole.

When you flip that triangle upside down, the children are actually in the place of putting their parents before God That isn't what works for our family

It's possible to have authority in that situation - however, the verse that says "children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right" - that was written *to the children*, not to me to make my child obey. I see my job as the mom to facilitate my child being as close as possible to God - because when he is as close to God as his 7 year old understanding can bring him, then he desires to be and strives to be obedient to his father and me

Originally Posted by Wonder Woman

I know I (and quite a few of the moms here) find marriage/family life to be best illustrated by a circle

God is the center of *everything* we do - not a hierarchy of God>Husband>Wife>Children. Every time I was shown that diagram as a child, it made me feel like my parents were between me and God, you know? If it's a circle, then as a wife I am as close to God as I am to my husband and my children.
My husband is as close to God as he is to me and our children.
My children not only have no one standing between them and God, but they are cherished as equal members of the family, not as the lowest on the family totem pole.

When you flip that triangle upside down, the children are actually in the place of putting their parents before God That isn't what works for our family

It's possible to have authority in that situation - however, the verse that says "children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right" - that was written *to the children*, not to me to make my child obey. I see my job as the mom to facilitate my child being as close as possible to God - because when he is as close to God as his 7 year old understanding can bring him, then he desires to be and strives to be obedient to his father and me

If the triangle is flipped then I agree but where do you get Biblically that it should be a circle and that your husband should be as close to you and your children as he is to God? Can you please provide scripture for that?

I agree that the verse for Children to Obey their parents is FOR the children....Ephesians 6:1 and Exodus 20:12 ARE for the kids. However what about the verses TO wives? What about the verses TO husbands? and what about the verses TO parents? Your job isn't to facilitate....your job is to teach and train like the scripture says, you CAN do this with GBD but we are still called to teach and to train. I have never saw a scripture that says I am to facilitate????

[Wonder Woman]

teaching and training *is* facilitating
I'm not going to get into wife/submit | husbands/love here, since the moderators have asked that we not turn this thread into that
I will say that I believe that when the Bible says all are equal at the foot of the cross, it meant that - so my marriage is based on a union of equals, not a hierarchy. That influences how I interpret the very same Scriptures that you believe promote a different view
You see hierarchy, I see a circle

I don't see how the triangle can't be viewed that way from a child's point of view. If there's a triangle, a hierarchy, then my son is lower than me and my husband, and we stand between him and God

[Cook]

Laura if you'd like to make a new thread on the public school teaching thing, or if you'd like me to, that's great I do believe that a system that is allowed to teach my kids for YEARS should include certain basic life skills that it's lacking: How to vote, gun safety, ACTUAL human biology, aging etc. But I think it's great that you have the balls to take it upon yourself and do that at home! I'm still going to be doing all that a home since I know it's not taught in schools- I just hate how unprepared young people are for the world these days. But who am I talk really? I'm a drop out.

Prerequisite was the wrong word and I appreciate you noticing that. Seriously Crystal's book explains it wonderfully. Equally yolked. Oneness. IF you only take one part of God's word and apply it, but the other isn't happening, it's doomed imo. And certainly teachings that only promote the hierarchy aspect of a family unit but do not include how to properly disciple the hearts of our children conveys a similarly "doomed to fail" image of what God truly wants for us. Again, jmo from my own journey.

And I do think that feminisim or aspects of it have caused us to sell at totally different picture to young women AND yes, men about what the future holds for them. You make the point wonderfully: At one point that stuff was taught in the home. I think delivery is kinda irrelevant- although I loved having my husband catch Katie!! I just think that's only part of what kind involvement I was mentioning. Again my point: with what all we are teaching today, this Dobsoneque approach sets men up for disappointment (and women too) as they become parents. It might even have been "good" at one point in the world... and I do think encouraging families to maintain their relationships and to continue working on them directly is important. I just don't think that it can be achieved with the teachings the OP is concerned about without some dire cost most certainly with the mindset and expectations that most families have today.

Annie you can make a new thread if you want too. I personally do not expect ANYONE else to teach my kids anything, which is why we homeschool I would go more into that but this is not the thread for that I suppose lol. You pretty much know my thoughts on this.

I won't read Crystals book and I mean NO disrespect and will probably get flamed BUT if you want to know why message me on FB