vent *why can't women be the experts???

[CelticJourney]

Oooo Veronica - excellent points!

Originally Posted by ellies mom

I think it probably has to do with the "medicalization of childbirth". When male doctors decided they wanted to take over the tradition role of mid-wives and deliver babies, it was probably a natural progression that male doctors would then become the experts on child rearing as well. Or a theory from another topic I read recently that applies, is that in the private sphere, women perform the role, but the "public sphere" people (the experts) are men. For example, in the privacy of the home, it is typically the woman's role to cook dinner but when it is done in the public sphere then it is the man's role (chefs in restaurants, BBQing outside, etc).

I think Crystal makes a great expert. It is that guy's own feeling of inadequancy, that blinds him to that.

About the bit I bolded -- Why is that??? I haven't thought about that before? Interesting

But he isn't the only male or female even that thinks like that though is he? I don't mean about Crystal's book - that was just an example - but even women seem to look to men - in the parenting realm? Do you think?

[ellies mom]

Well, if you look at childbirth and nursing, those are both prime examples of how completely they've been wrested from the original experts. At one time, a woman could learn to nurse from her mother or another female would show them how. After 3-4 generations of "science trumps nature formula feeding", we have almost completely lost that "tribal knowledge" (to describe the idea of knowledge being passed down one generation to the next), so a lot of women don't have anyone to show them. The whole doula thing actually started in the early 80's in a response to the lost of "childbirth as natural" knowledge. After years of men running the childbirth show, there wasn't enough of that "tribal knowledge" left to help women that wanted a different type childbirth experience, so they had to create a profession to bring that back. So in my long-winded way, I'm trying to say that people have simply forgotten that women really can be experts in these things because they just haven't seen anything different. I really think that is changing though. I do think that women are slowly starting to realized that this was "our realm" at one time and it can be again. My mom breastfed us. My sister, SIL and I breastfed our children, so by the time DD has children she will have two generations of that knowledge to draw on. That is a good start. It will get better.

I was exposed to a lot of BF growing up because I was SO taken with babies and spent heaps of time from a young girl about 10 with twin cousins, and then other family friends being BF.

When it came to BFing DS I didn't get any advice - I just did it - when talking to the midwife (we were in an indigenous area) she commented how the Yolngu women didn't ever need instruction in BF, and how I seemed to take it in my stride - and I said that I had been exposed to a lot of BF in my life...which is why I think the Yolgnu women had no issues.

NIP has got to help this - surely??

(Funnily I had a male midwife who was going to show me how to BF and I was like NO WAY I don't think so )

[ellies mom]

Originally Posted by Narritjan

NIP has got to help this - surely??

I think it must. I'm doing a term paper on breastfeeding. In one of the books I'm reading (written 10 years ago) , the author, a college professor, was amazed that a girl in one of her classes was horrified to discover that "women's breasts are like udders", the idea that a person could make it to college and be completely unaware that breasts had a purpose for something other than being ogled at by men. With NIP becoming more common, I think it raises the awareness of breastfeeding. So a young woman is at least seeing it and seeing it helps to normalize it.

An example of how we get hurt by not having cultural experience (IMO) is as simple as not having someone tell a new mom that nursing at first is difficult and it can hurt even if you are doing it right but it really truely does get better. My mom didn't so much show me how to breastfeed but she reassured me that it would get better and to just give it three weeks. I understand why La Leche League says breastfeeding doesn't hurt if it is done right, but to a new mom who doesn't have anyone to tell them differently, that normal "toughening the girl's up" pain tells them that they are doing it wrong and therefore must not be able to breastfeed. I've always wondered how many new moms give up for this reason.

I can't believe a woman didn't know that breasts produced milk

I agree about cultural experience - my friend - who was the one who informed me that BFing could hurt was totally unaware until she had her baby...and then was on a mission to let other pre-mum's know

A lot about child birth is like that too I reckon - another friend of mine didn't realise she would bleed after giving birth. Although I do think women are being better educated in this regard.

And parenting -- more awareness about what a baby is like -- that they will need feeding every two hours, that you will get tired etc etc

I think LLL and the Australian equivalent ABA are doing a good job at trying to educate women.

I know my Mum's generation was poorly informed and treated as though they had no knowledge and needed the 'experts'. My mum was left alone to birth my brother - (until the actual birth) - he was then whisked away and brought back every 4 hours for a feed and overnight not brought in at all (the babies were bottle-fed but not sure what was in the bottle). Then she was sent home with a baby...oh and she had inverted nipples and was sent home without the nipple shield she had been using and the one she got from the chemist was different...and after about 6weeks was depressed, had a screaming baby and told by the health clinic to feed her baby evaporated milk. She, in looking back, is convinced she had PPD but never diagnosed -- too which my comment was - well it is NO wonder

So in my own birth experience Mum wasn't all that 'helpful' - but I think it was good for her to come to the birth and be around me as I mothered my baby...(my dad marvelled at our Amby Hammock - wishing he'd had one with Matthew as he would swing the heavy bassinette in both arms in an attempt to settle him!!)...she talked A LOT at that time about her mothering experience especially with Matthew.

Anyway my point is that her generation didn't really have the tools to pass down to us...so in away we (I) have to educate myself.

[Beauty4Ashes]

I had seen a couple of women in church (okay, maybe one) who nursed her baby, so I *knew* that breasts make milk. But I also remember working in toys r us and seeing women buying case after case of this expensive formula stuff. I was maybe 18-19 and thought, why don't they just buy regular milk? It's so much cheaper!!! When I moved to NY, there were tons of women on the hospital campus who were breast feeding or having babies or pregnant, so I learned a little bit. I did however go to the breastfeeding classes at the hospital. It was there that I heard about the benefits of bf a baby. Plus, I'd heard over and over how my mil nursed dh for 2.5 years. My point is that I grew up so sheltered, not a lot of babies around me period. Some of the kids in the nursery were curious as to what I was doing with ds2 when I was nursing him. I don't think that they'd even seen bf'ing.

[ellies mom]

Originally Posted by Narritjan

Anyway my point is that her generation didn't really have the tools to pass down to us...so in away we (I) have to educate myself.

That is it exactly. They didn't have the tools because their mom's didn't have the tools. There is a huge cultural gap that is just starting to be bridged. But as we educate ourselves, we will have those tools to pass to our child.

By the way, letting new mom's know that BFing will hurt at first is my personal mission and the other is that BF baby poop doesn't look like the pictures, but it is still OK. That was the other thing I was horrified that no one told us.