Proverbs 23:13-14/Q's about the rod

[TulipMama]

Anyways, I was excited about this line in these verses because my pastor has a Calvanistic bent and is very ADAMENT that there is NOTHING one can do to save themselves... I think I may have an argument here if you ladies can help me develop it

*grin*

Yep.

Applying the Gospel to our children has really solidified my belief in gentle discipline. Developing this line of thought in a written out organized way, though, has been hard for me to do! Bits and pieces. . .

[katiekind]

One new thing to throw into the mix is that the Hebrews' categories for what happened to you after death and therefore what "save your soul" could mean are not precisely the same as our current categories. We are reading "salvation by grace through faith in Jesus" back into this text and it would have been quite alien to them.

Just thought I'd mention it!

One new thing to throw into the mix is that the Hebrews' categories for what happened to you after death and therefore what "save your soul" could mean are not precisely the same as our current categories. We are reading "salvation by grace through faith in Jesus" back into this text and it would have been quite alien to them.

OOOH! That's interesting. I have wondered about that many times, and puzzled over why the verse included the reference to saving their souls. I just wasn't sure where to turn for a better understanding of it. Are there any literary sources that express this idea? I would love to read about it a bit.

[katiekind]

The Resurrection of the Son of God by N. T. Wright starts with a lengthy (and I'm not kidding) discussion of the afterlife concepts held by the Greeks, Romans and Jews in pre-Christian times . As I recall, he said the starting place for the Hebrew belief in the afterlife was approximately that when you died you went down to "Sheol" or "the grave"--even the righteous did. As God continued to reveal Himself in the Old Testament, the belief developed that the love of God was so strong that it would not end at death, and they began to have an idea that there would be a resurrection life after a period of disembodied existence. He does discuss the "save me from Sheol" language that comes into various Psalms and points out that there is varied opinion--the writer's hope may have been that God would keep him from an untimely death or that God would allow the writer to pass through Sheol and move on to a life beyond, and he also points out that the meaning might have been read differently at a later date than at an earlier date.

[One of Wright's main points for going through all of the history of afterlife belief is to point out that the disciples could not get the idea to claim an immediate, bodily resurrection for their Messiah Jesus through the influence of any culture that was on hand to influence their thinking on this. No culture of the day believed in an immediate bodily resurrection for a Messiah or for anyone else. This makes it unlikely that the disciples and early Christians would get the idea for it unless it happened that way.]

[ShowersofBlessings]

Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove

and another reason this verse can't be taken literally is that you *can* beat a child to death with an implement--or even your hand. You can't guarantee their salvation by doing it, but you might kill them. Since Scripture doesn't lie, it can't be intended to literally mean what we read in the English.

I also wanted to point out that Scripture itself appears to contradict these verses if they are taken literally. Exodus 21:20 indicates that it is possible to accidently beat someone to death with a rod. And btw, the rod is the same Hebrew word used in both places.

Kathy,

nak

Thanks for the further explanation. I'm even more intrigued. May just have to put that on my reading list.

[ArmsOfLove]

Yes, Kathy--excellent point! Sheol is the grave is death in these passages. So the verse is talking about helping someone off the path to death--makes me think of the NT passage about seeing a brother committing a sin that leads to death and pulling them away immediately versus praying for them if it's not a sin that leads to death.

Originally Posted by ShowersofBlessings

I also wanted to point out that Scripture itself appears to contradict these verses if they are taken literally. Exodus 21:20 indicates that it is possible to accidently beat someone to death with a rod. And btw, the rod is the same Hebrew word used in both places.

Moses used a shebet when he killed the Egyptian.

Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove

Yes, Kathy--excellent point! Sheol is the grave is death in these passages. So the verse is talking about helping someone off the path to death--makes me think of the NT passage about seeing a brother committing a sin that leads to death and pulling them away immediately versus praying for them if it's not a sin that leads to death.

The verse says "save his soul from death"... I am confused...

Cindy,

I always thought that "save his SOUL from death" indicated spiritual death, e.g. hell. Is that what you're asking?

Are there any translations that read "save his soul from hell"? Just wondering. I searched a little bit but didn't find any.

[katiekind]

You're right, Cindy. It does say that. I was talking about the kind of lingo used in Psalms and other places in the OT to describe what the Jews in that time thought would happen to them when they died. They believed they would would go down to the grave, to Sheol when they died--body and soul, righteous or not. When we NT Christians see "save his soul from death" language, we're thinking differently than the Jews of that time. Specifically we're thinking "salvation" and Jews of that time likely saw "save his soul from death" as "save him from an untimely death". In other words, the whole verse you quoted might exegete out to approximately this: Parents, your child won't die from being disciplined but certainly COULD die from a foolish or sinful act, so save him from that by disciplining him." (See how I sidestep the literal versus figurative rod? I take the lazy way out on that-- I haven't studied up on it but I don't need to land on either side of that one, because this is a Proverb and the point is the wisdom about discipline, not the exact method.

Make sense?