I'm about to let this baby cry it out...

[MegMarch]

My daughter just turned four. She nurses to sleep still but it is less than five minutes from crawling to my lap, I love yous, nursing and unlatching.

In the middle of the night, I usually tell her "I need to be on my stomach but you can have milk later." And that's fine for her most of the time. She wakes up and wants to eat real food, not nurse. If she does need to nurse it's just a quick comfort nursing and right back to sleep. I don't see any reason right now to make it a hard and fast line. Right now it's working for us as is and leaves room for the odd moments of her really needing to nurse, during sickness or stress.

[solatido]

OK, now my T did not wake every 45 minutes. But he did do a fair bit of night waking and was hard to sneak away from. And only nummies could put him back to sleep. He was very intense about his need to nurse. There were a few times DH was quite frustrated that T woke when I left the house and he was stuck with an inconsolable screaming toddler (he was almost 2 the most memorable time). I was not single parenting but it was a very rare thing for anyone else to put him to sleep. Eventually DH could help but he still needed/wanted to nurse in the night until about age 3. Between 3 and 3.5 we completely stopped the night nursing and nursing to sleep because I couldn't manage it with two, but he was old enough that it didn't take much nudging from me. Then for a while DH or I would lay with him or pat him to sleep. We graduated to sitting in a chair across the room telling stories then going out after he was asleep.

Now he is 5 and puts himself to sleep with absolutely no help- he doesn't really want us in the room when he is going to sleep unless we are helping H go to sleep. He is not afraid of the dark- he was for a while. DH and I both think that he is more secure in his independence because his night needs were so completely met in his early days.

It is hard, but you can think of it as an investment.

As for "training" them to sleep without nursing, I DO think it is good to try putting children to sleep in different ways- nursing, rocking, patting, whatever. But realistically, that is something I try once in a while when the "stars align" and it seems like that'll work. Otherwise, at that age, it's easier to just give the breast

It is only a season, but it is a VERY difficult season. It will get better. You are NOT spoiling him. He will mature. I didn't think T would, despite reading other posts that sound like mine. But he did.

[Beth1231]

After three babies and one extremely difficult sleeper (my first),one incredibly easy sleeper (my second) and N, my 13 mo who falls between the extremes,I do think that the various sides or lines if you will are far more nuanced than perhaps one thread can cover.
And so,in the interest of trying to help a sleep-deprived mama-not for her convenience but for her health and sanity-I want to add that whether you nurse or don't nurse your baby every time he wakes,I would encourage at least a try at patting him,rocking him,etc and letting him be sleepy (beside you,in a crib,etc) and learning to associate soft,warm bed with sleep rather than soft,warm bed is where I wake up and call for mom to help me get back to sleep.
I cannot see harm or risk in sharing (or rather passing on from Pantley' s NCSS) a principle that encourages longer,deeper rest for both mother and child.
I do not advocate,hard,unmoving lines. Follow your intuition by all means

[MidnightCafe]

Originally Posted by CelticJourney

There are true biological reasons that babies fall asleep with breastmilk/feeding. Yes, it's more convenient for mom and starts a training process, but it feels like we are getting on shakey ground here. I suppose I have seen too many medical issues and true physical needs being met by doing what a mom feels necessary and I would hate for anyone to feel discouraged from nursing their baby when they feel it is the right thing to do.

I would FIRST start with trying to nurse down in the bed and skip the step of the crib and see what happens.

I want to re-iterate that I was not suggesting withholding breastfeeding at all. What we did when DD somewhat over a year old was nurse at bedtime but before getting into bed. After nursing, we would lie down and talk her to sleep. (This didn't involve any crying, either. She had a full tummy, and was completely content to lie down in bed while we talked and patted her back until she fell asleep.) Once she wasn't falling asleep while nursing she didn't wake to nurse constantly in the middle of the night, either. A pat on the back and some mumbled reassurances settled her back into sleep when she stirred. If she woke up wanting to nurse, we still nursed. I'm not in any way talking about withholding biological needs. Just want to be clear.

[Soliloquy]

Another post mentioned this and I think it's worth repeating. Trying to use the crib can cause far more frustration than relief. If you feel like you "should" be putting him in his crib and it's just not working, take the crib out of the equation completely. None of my babies would ever stay asleep in a crib, even for 5 minutes. With my first baby, it frustrated me to no end and I kept trying and getting more and more frustrated. Once I finally just accepted it, it was so pleasant! With each subsequent baby I tried a few times and then just went with what worked really well. My babies slept in a carrier during the day and in my bed at night.

[Chaos Coordinator]

Spoiler because you might not want to hear it yet:

my five year old was, has been, and is like that. It is utterly exhausting and requires i be extra diligent about all manner of other things ( his diet, activity level, blue light exposure, and my own self care). But you know what? It doesn't change my responsibilities. I dont just get to pick and choose when to parent him. I'm still his mother unconditionally, even when I'm crying and trembling from sleep deprivation and begging God for mercy.


I know its hard. But it doesn't mean you've done something wrong. Some things just are. Sometimes our kids have a trait that is MASSIVELY ENORMOUSLY inconvenient. We still keep plugging along, because God loves us and that love pours through us into our children. We dont get designer babies. Please dont give up and leave your child alone to cry. God certainly never gave up on us.

It certainly can lead to anxiety and depression. Please take care.

[mamacat]

I only had 1 out of 5 that a crib worked for.And of course she was dc3 so didnt even make provisons for a crib and had to later after she outgrew her oses basket.

[MariJo7]

Soliloquy has an excellent and a very practical point:"Is he getting at least an hour of fresh air and lots of large motor activity every day? Is he eating enough in the evenings? A bedtime snack can help."

Your little fellow is becoming a toddler. It is amazing how hungry they sometimes can be when they start growing. Even after a bedtime snack you still can nurse him down.

[ArmsOfLove]

She had a full tummy, and was completely content to lie down in bed while we talked and patted her back until she fell asleep.) Once she wasn't falling asleep while nursing she didn't wake to nurse constantly in the middle of the night, either.

Some children are very content to do lots of things. A child who is this much more in this area and already not happy and content isn't likely to respond well to an approach that takes away what he associates with comfort.

First, I would encourage the OP that this is part of mothering with some children. They aren't doing it to us and they are miserable to be doing it themselves, so it falls to us to do our best to comfort them and, when that is not possible, to be with them the way we would want someone who loves us to help and comfort us through a rough situation. I know it's hard when all of the hormones are going on inside of us - especially in response to the crying - but mothering is often about doing the hard stuff and you can do it.

Second, children don't cry like this for no reason. I would definitely looking into removing dairy from your diet (all hidden dairy too, not just no milk or cheese). I would get the child to a doctor to discuss reflux and other health issues that can affect sleep.

Third, I would work to create a rhythm of the day to be alternating expending energy and resting so that energy is expended right before times of sleeping (naps, bedtime). Not over exhausting them, just finding a beautiful and natural rhythm of up and down times. And I would reconsider the sleeping arrangements. If he wakes every time you lay him in the bed, he is not the problem. I would encourage you to find a way to stop doing the thing that is disrupting his sleep. Letting his CIO won't fix the problem - it will just be another problem and will create more problems.

for answers

[MidnightCafe]

Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove

Some children are very content to do lots of things. A child who is this much more in this area and already not happy and content isn't likely to respond well to an approach that takes away what he associates with comfort.

Ummm...My child was one of those 1yr olds waking every 45 minutes to nurse. I responded to this post because it sounded almost exactly like what I went through with DD.

I was offering a suggestion. That's all. It's a possibility. In my clarification I was trying to communicate that we weren't withholding needs or letting her cry. I went above and beyond to state the part about crying so that people would not assume I was suggesting that the baby should be nursed and then cry to sleep.

I am in no way suggesting that what worked for us will work for everyone. I *am* offering one possibility that *might* be worth a try.

For what it's worth, I also agree that it's worth looking into the possibility of reflux and food allergies. I've known plenty of people for whom that was the key to a better night's sleep.

[mamacat]

I suspect also that while it worked out very well with my dds 2nd dd as a NB it probably wouldnt have worked for some of my kids but wish I had known to at least give it a try

[CelticJourney]

I think the responses in this thread a good example of keeping your options open and keeping your eye on your baby and what your individual child needs - none of us can see what you see.

[sweetpeasmommy]

I had a non sleeper. For 6.5 years. He never sttn until we removed both dairy and gluten at 5 yo. And didn't regularly STTN until we removed sugar at 6.5 yo. He has slept great ever since.

Not nursing to sleep was not going to work out with a undiagnosed refluxy food allergic infant. I did make sure to get him protein and complex carb snack before bed every night and then nurse him down. That helped get at least one longer stretch. I was also never going to cosleep but finally decided to do it safely since I kept falling asleep with him in arms.

CIO is not the answer. It causes brain damage, increased cortisol and can lead to life long anxiety. You don't just do it once and then done. You keep doing it over and over. Every time they get sick and you actually comfort them at night, you repeat the cycle when they are well.

Some people do well with introducing a lovey or blanket that you can use when nursing and sleeping as a comfort object. Not to replace you, but it is possible that if you skooch away for a bit it might help to have your smell there.

[SewingGreenMama]

I wanted to come and say while it does get better some kids are simply much needier at bedtimes.
My oldest is 7, he will not go to sleep unless I'm in the room.
Which means if he wakes up too much in the middle of the night to pee etc he'll come to our room because he can't fall back asleep in his room.
And he does share a room with my 3yo, who needs me to fall asleep and still finishes out 60-70% of our night in my bed (usually ON me lol).
I sometimes wish I could put them both in the full bottom bunk and let the help each other fall asleep, but that just doesn't work.

Hmmm, maybe this wasn't so encouraging. But your not doing anything wrong, some babies need more night time care. My 3yo nursed 6x a night until he was 2, then he nursed 3x a night until he weaned at 3y3m.



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[MCP1982]

Wow, the responses are overwhelming. Thank you. So I of course did not let him CIO, but I was feeling so desparate for sleep and a break its how I felt.
I'll try to answer some questions I remember reading.
Elimination diet - you wouldn't believe the diet I was on. My LC laughed that I basically ate air. I've been able to reintroduce everything now.
We have tried eating at different times, and dinner right before bed works the best for us.
He was a reflux baby and weaned off those meds. Though I had been rolling the idea around in my head that perhaps we should try meds again. Thank you to those that mentioned it. I went to the ped today and started zantac this afternoon. Will take a couple days, but hopefully that will help.
I do sometimes go into the spare bedroom to sleep so my DH can get good sleep, and so he doesn't disturb us when he gets up to go to work. (When he is in town)
His mattress is at an incline, and that seems to help with a nap.
I don't remember what else you all asked or suggested, but thank you for the responses. I think I have been struggling with a bit of ppd, plus I have ptsd that rears its ugly head this time of year, and the time change hasnt helped either. So with being lonely, tired, and feeling crazy, I needed to vent.
I love this baby more than I ever imagined I could, and I will hold him, cuddle him, and nurse him when he needs me.
Maren