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Old 02-27-2010, 01:44 AM   #1
Firebird Rising
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Default Help me combat this gallbladder problem...*small attack and some theories #45*

I'm in the middle of my second attack this week.

I have done extensive research online about this condition. In September, when I ended up in the ER, it was confirmed that there were "small stones". I read the radiology report and the surgeon consult report and feel confident that I can deal with this naturally, or at least start that way instead of going straight to surgery.

Here are the contributing factors I've compiled that seem to lead to this problem. Mine are in red:

high sat. fats or refined carbs diet
being over 40 yrs old
having excess estrogen from pregnancy (I THINK this would still apply, right?)
taking HRT or contraceptives
obesity
sudden and rapid weight loss (would suddenly being NOT pregnant be considered a loss?)
yo-yo dieting
very low calorie diets

fasting
lack of exercise
food allergies (commonly eggs, pork, onions, fowl, milk, coffee, citrus, corn, beans, nuts)
having diabetes
crohn's disease
cystic fibrosis
cirrhosis of liver
excessive consumption of sugar
taking statins or diuretics
certain antibiotics
anti-rejection drugs
prostaglandins
stress

Triggers include (guess which I had today ):
caffeine
chocolate
eggs
dairy products
greasy/deep fried foods.

I need to do a flush (will describe that in just a bit).

What are the risks of a flush? The biggest one is that you could get a stone stuck that won't come out and end up in surgery. That's what's going to happen anyways if this problem does not resolve. I could have milk supply issues from the fasting. Right now, I go between having a normal to overproductive milk supply. I am going to try to increase it and also get a freezer stocked if I end up in surgery or get separated from Ben for some reason.

I need to eliminate coffee for sure, but the caffeine has been used for ADHD for me. However, now I'm on Wellbutrin, which seems to be working. So, I'm a bit confused as to whether it's the caffeine or the coffee that causes gallbladder problems, as I've seen them used interchangeably. If it's just the coffee, I'll start taking caffeine pills for the ADHD if I still need it. I'm currently consuming four shots of espresso in the morning and the last week, it has felt like two much combined with the Wellbutrin.

I successfully followed a low-fat vegan diet for three years and was very healthy. I need to get back to that. When I moved in with my parents, I began eating all sorts of toxic stuff. Problem with this diet is that it's a lot more prep than I am used to b/c so much of it's not processed. It's imperative that I plan meals to make it happen.

So here's info on the flush. I've read example after example of flushes and this one seems the most complete and healthy. My midwife had read it and approved it when I was pregnant, before a violent stomach flu in September wiped out all my symptoms.

Quote:
GALLSTONE FLUSH

As devised by the Dulwich Health Society
METHOD:

1. For six consecutive days drink two litres of fresh, pure apple juice per day. Beg, borrow or steal a juicer if you can and use organic green apples, which have a higher pectin content than red apples. The pectin in the apple juice will begin to soften the gallstones. If you do not have a juicer, ensure you purchase organic apple juice, and eat organic green apples. It also helps to drink 5 cups of camomile tea per day. During this time eat sensibly, following the guidelines on page 3.

2.On the sixth day, eat nothing after lunch but continue to drink the apple juice and camomile tea.

3. At 9.00 p.m on the sixth day, take 1-2 level tablespoons of Epsom salts* dissolved in a little warm water. Prepare another dose incase you need it later.

4. At 10.00 p.m mix together 2 oz/60ml of freshly squeezed organic lemon juice and 4 oz/120 ml of cold-pressed, unrefined extra virgin olive oil. Drink as slowly as you can manage. (Drinking it through a straw helps, so that the oil does not come into contact with the lips.)

5. Got to bed immediately and lay on your right side for 30 minutes with your right knee drawn up to your chest before you go to sleep, to help the olive oil mix drain.

6. During the next day you should pass gallstones that are as soft as putty.

*The Epsom salts (magnesium sulphate) are used to dilate the bile duct, to reduce the risk of a stone becoming lodged there. If you suspect that a stone may have become lodged (which will produce a mild, dull pain in comparison the extremely sharp pain of a gallstone attack), repeat the procedure.
Here are the food/lifestyle changes conducive to keeping your gallbladder:

Quote:
Eat whole grains, unrefined carbohydrates (brown bread, rice and pasta etc) and plenty of dietary fibre.
Quote:
¨Increase intake of vegetable proteins (especially soy products), decreasing intake of animal proteins.
¨Consume plenty of fresh, organic fruit and vegetables, especially those containing pectin (especially green apples) and cellulose (especially celery and crisp fruits and vegetables).
¨Eliminate intake of saturated fats, and ALL products containing white sugar and white flour.
¨Eat no fried foods, especially those that are deep-fried.
¨Avoid ice-cold foods and drinks - room temperature or slightly warm is best.
¨Avoid coffee.
¨Drink at least 6-8 glasses of water per day to keep the water content of your bile topped up, plus chamomile tea if possible
¨NEVER skip meals and ALWAYS eat breakfast.
¨Every meal or snack should contain 10g of fat to enable the gallbladder to contract.
¨Drink a little unrefined, cold-pressed extra virgin olive oil each day (see Daily Flush Drink above). Olive oil will help the gallbladder to contract vigorously and thus cleanse itself.
¨Do not eat excessively large meals, which put an unnecessary burden on the digestive system.
¨Vegetarians have a much lower incidence of gallstones, so adopting a vegetarian diet will certainly help.

When I follow the low-fat vegan diet, it's a diet of no added oils to foods. So, I take the natural fats from whatever the foods happen to have. So I add no oil to the tofu when I "fry" it. I just use water or bragg's to cook it in.

I would have to adjust this diet to include the olive oil. I wonder if coconut oil would be better?

A HUGE trigger for me is ice-cold drinks. Last week's was caused by a smoothie from frozen fruit and I knew immediately that it was a problem.

So, I'm interested in thoughts and ideas. I'd love a partner to do a flush with. I'll document progress here when I get it going. I think I'm going to try to get to the store tomorrow. Unfortunately, we're out of food stamps and DH doesn't get paid till next week so I'll have to settle for non-organic apples. Any idea how many I'll need to get two liters? I don't even know how much that is 'cause I'm so American

And the stress in my life. It's overwhelming sometimes. I went to bed completely bummed b/c of my shoulder hurting so much. But that's nothing.

Feel free to contribute your thoughts But no, I won't consider surgery until I've tried other options. I know it has really worked well for some, but I'm not interested in the possibility of those side effects.

Jen D.

PS: If you are interested in things to do WHEN you are having an attack, I'll include those too. I've had varying results.
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Last edited by Firebird Rising; 05-05-2010 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 02-27-2010, 05:33 AM   #2
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Default Re: Help me combat this gallbladder problem...

just a thought but,,,,,, I had confirmed gallstones in pregnancy and thought I was having attacks. It turned out I had a pinched nerve in my back and wasn't gallstones at all
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Old 02-27-2010, 06:50 AM   #3
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Default Re: Help me combat this gallbladder problem...

I may partner with you in the flush, but I want to wait til I go to the consult with my surgeon to find out more info (like the size of my stones which I know is important to know first) My appointment is March15th so not sure if you want to wait that long or not. If not, that's ok because I am still researching and trying to figure all this out and what I want to do. I keep flip flopping back and forth depending on how I feel. When I feel good, I want nothing more than to keep my organ. When I feel crappy, I lean towards the surgery and just getting it over with and feeling better

I also was not sure about doing the flush while nursing. Will this effect our supply. Are you planning to pump before the flush or just keep nursing through it?

I am still drinking coffee too. I am undiagnosed ADD I believe...coffee really helps me to focus and get things done. I drink a STRONG cup in the morning and another most afternoons. It hasn't brought on an attack, but it's probably not the most helpful either. I keep reading mixed reports though. I've read that coffee is good at preventing gallstones and that those who drink coffee daily are less likely to have them (though not the case for me obviously) and then that caffine is bad for an attack. But it's one thing I have not been willing to give up yet either

Eggs are what brought on my last attack the other day. Eggs and onions. I'm so bummed because we just found a way to get farm fresh eggs, cheese, raw milk, kefir etc... and I can't eat any of it

I need accountablity in all this too. It's a lot more work to keep this diet. Dh was so sweet last night because he was eating something I could not and when he saw how tempted I was, he stopped and put it away. I felt bad, because I want him to eat what he can, but I have no self control right now...nursing makes me hungry as it is. And then when I'm pretty much only eating veggies and fruits all day, I am starving! I don't want to be afraid to eat anymore
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Old 02-27-2010, 08:14 AM   #4
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Default Re: Help me combat this gallbladder problem...

Really, my think is that if I DO the flush and end up in the ER getting surgery, then it's not really THAT worse-case scenario than planning the surgery.

AFA milk goes, I have ample supply and will build it up beforehand. I was going to do the flush, perhaps starting next week.

I'm not sure about your surgeon but I know that any of them I've talked to think I'm a nut for considering it. But with the ultrasound I had in the ER when I was pregnant and reading the radiology report, I know they are small stones.

Jen D.
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Old 02-27-2010, 08:25 AM   #5
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Default Re: Help me combat this gallbladder problem...

2-liter bottle of soda...that's the size of 2 liters

(beyond that, I have very little clue)

eta: OH--any chance you might be able to get a whole bushel from a farmer? Maybe from a cider mill?

eta2: if you get desperate money-wise trying to buy so many apples, perhaps you could buy pectin in the canning aisle
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Old 02-27-2010, 08:30 AM   #6
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Default Re: Help me combat this gallbladder problem...

I'm pretty sure mine are small too but don't know officially. the girl who did my U/S also has stones and so although she was not suppose to show me them, she did. She's had hers for a year and since she works doing U/S she just keeps checking on them herself making sure they don't get too big. She told me mine were smaller than hers. She said they were what they call "sludgeballs" and there were lots of little ones. I'm suppose to pretend I never saw them

In the meantime I have thought of going ahead and at least doing the lemon water and oliveoil drink in the morning, I heard that is really good either way I have been cooking with olive oil too...making things like eggplant and zucini. I even drank a tablespoon or so the other day when I just felt kinda icky..not an attack but just not my normal self either. They say olive oil is a dieretic and really good for us. I've also been putting it on my salads.

One thing that has helped in my attacks is cucumbers. last week I had an attack because I drank some pinapple juice. I forgot that citrus is bad My back started tensing up and I started feeling really icky. I immediatly went to the kitchen and started eating cucumber. I was bracing myself because the 2 takes before that went on for HOURS. I was scared. But within 15min it was gone. I felt 100% and awesome. I told dh we must ALWAYS have a cucumber in our fridge!

I have no idea how my surgeon will be but I am bracing myself for him to want to push surgery on me and not be open to more natural routes
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Old 02-28-2010, 07:42 PM   #7
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Default Re: Help me combat this gallbladder problem...

I'm having an attack again now

I drank a bunch of room temp water

ate some cucumber

drank some apple cider vinagar with some apple juice

and dh just massaged my back some and gave it a few hits as well

What else can I do? I don't want this to go on for hours It's mild right now because I think the things I am doing are helping some but it's not going away completely yet what else can I do???? I don't have any pepermint tea but so wish I did

I HATE this

---------- Post added at 09:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 PM ----------

ok, i think the worse is over. All that stuff must have helped. I am just feeling nauseous now but the intense pressure and chills is gone
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Old 02-28-2010, 08:03 PM   #8
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Default Re: Help me combat this gallbladder problem...

Get thyself a shower/bath with a detachable sprayer and put water directly on your back and belly, as hot as you can stand it.

Immediately after, get on a comfortable chair/couch with a heating pad on high and sit there as long as tolerated.

epsom salts, ingested as directions on the box. magnesium (I think it is) dilates the duct and may let the stone pass through.

I'll come back with more if I can think of them.
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Old 02-28-2010, 11:50 PM   #9
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Default Re: Help me combat this gallbladder problem...

I'm MUCH better now but just feel a little off, if that makes sense. I was going to go to bed but someone in our church is in labor and at 7cm and 1/2 our church is on fb babywatching and I just have to stay up for the news (she's 5wks early so this came as a surprise tonight)...though I could really use to rest and would feel better sleeping right now.

We do have a detachable shower thing so I will try that next time. Maybe I will get the heating pad out as I baby watch, and off to take my Cal/Mag now



---------- Post added at 11:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 PM ----------

Ugh, I think I read in haste and saw the Mag but you meant via epsom salt and I took 2 Cal/Mag pills I am in pain again, this is bad. No more going to bed for me now. Drinking some more applejuice with apple cider vinagar I really can't keep doing this. I seem to be getting more attacks more frequent and it's still 2wks before I see the surgeon. I am eating mostly just fruits and veggies...I am going to have to go ONLY fruits and veggies for a time if this keep up

---------- Post added 03-01-2010 at 12:16 AM ---------- Previous post was 02-28-2010 at 11:19 PM ----------

I did the shower thing...felt great but is it a bad sign that I about scourched myself without realizing it because it felt so good. I'm dying here. Waiting for heating pad to warm up. This is no fun at all

---------- Post added at 01:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 AM ----------

1:45 and I finally feel some relief and heading off to bed for some much needed sleep About 15min ago I still thought I was dying and was contemplating the ER, but it suddenly stopped and I feel fine now. I did vomit about 40 or so min ago, thought it would help (which I believe it finally did) but it was taking longer to help AND I felt WORSE after it so I thought it would NEVER end. The pain increased so bad afer vomiting, it was HORRIBLE. And then I came on here to post for prayer and soon after, poof, I was all better The relief is amazing. After you are in that much pain, you feel like you can conquer anything once it's finally gone. I wanted to die 45 min ago though
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Old 03-01-2010, 08:19 AM   #10
Firebird Rising
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Default Re: Help me combat this gallbladder problem...

I do find that the pain can come and go for short times. The average length of attacks for me is 4-6 hrs. And when it goes, it goes suddenly.

cal-mag never hurt anyone, but epsom salts can do a lot more work quickly if needed.
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Old 03-01-2010, 09:39 AM   #11
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Default Re: Help me combat this gallbladder problem...

So what does it mean that the attacks keep getting more frequent? That was my 3rd this week, though the first 2 were short and mild (why I thought this one went away before it came back) Will only a flush solve this or is there a chance they could space out again on their own? Could I have been passing a stone last night? that was the most intense ever and it felt like something was moving around in there at times. When should you go to the ER? I had no fever but I did at times feel dizzy or like I would pass out from the pain. I made myself vomit because I felt like it would be the ONLY thing that helped. Then it got WORSE, then finally better. I felt great this morning, except for how tired I was, but I HAD to have a coffee I feel ok, not like I did before the coffee, I have a slight tenderness feeling now on my right side, but I just can't give up the coffee yet I'm afraid of eating but know I need to eat. I nibbled on cereal and then had some cottage cheese...I know dairy is bad but I read that cottage cheese is good. No idea why that is, but it is something my body can handle and it's nice to have SOMETHING a bit heavier than veggies at times.

I am so and out of it today. I want nothing more than a nice cozy nap.
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Old 03-01-2010, 10:03 AM   #12
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Default Re: Help me combat this gallbladder problem...

If you don't know how small the stones are, absolutely do not do the flush.

I went to the ER after 6 hrs of intense pain, while 21 weeks pregnant and concerned about baby. I had literally been up all night and when I went to the ER, I saw my co-worker in registration (I work there) and just started crying.

My last childbirth was a walk in the park compared to that pain. You have your own threshhold. The medications they can give for pain are incredibly helpful and felt SO good. But there's also the breastfeeding issue so make sure you have a stash for baby as well as a pump. I'm building a stash right now for both when I return to work part-time and also when I do the flush.

I had them VERY frequently for about a two month period just before the ER visit. YES, vomiting can help. If you need to, do it. I tried and tried last time and couldn't do it so ended up doing the tub and heating pad thing. Also, with heat, if you have a rice sock you can heat up in the microwave, that's helpful.

I pray you have a break.
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Old 03-01-2010, 11:08 AM   #13
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Default Re: Help me combat this gallbladder problem...

My threshold was almost met last night. If that had gone on any longer I would have seriously told dh we needed to find someone to come watch the kids pronto! I need to make a supply for dd2 as that holds me back and worries me. I don't have a good pump though, just a manuel one

Is there anything good for the tender feeling I have today? I have not had it before like this. I am tender to the touch. No attack, just a sore feeling. Maybe I'll try the heating pad. Making some broccoli for lunch. To scared to eat anything else. But I am stuggling with this eating thing as they say one thing that's bad is loosing lots of weight fast. BUT if I can't eat anything but veggies and fruit I AM loosing more weight so isn't that bad ??? It's like a no win situation

Oh and I would not do a flush until I meet with the surgeon to find out how big/small my stones are. I was just wondering if one happened to be passing anyway. I'm trying to figure out what exactly is an attack. Is it one passing and getting stuck in a duct?? that's what I thought I read, but is it something else as well??
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Old 03-01-2010, 05:54 PM   #14
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Default Re: Help me combat this gallbladder problem...

I feel like I've totally hijacked your thread but you've been so helpful and I'm not sure where else to ask.

When you were having you attacks so close together, what kind of things did you eat that kept you satisfied and not starving. I've been ok all day but it's almost 8pm now and I feel so HUNGRY! I am afraid to eat much though but I need something. I had a baked potatoe and some green beans for dinner, but I am HUNGRY! What can I snack on??? It was my snack last night that sent me into attack mode and I know especially at night we need to be more careful I need good food ideas of what to eat that keeps me from feeling like I'm starving myself
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Old 03-01-2010, 06:11 PM   #15
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Default Re: Help me combat this gallbladder problem...

Quote:
Originally Posted by euromom View Post
I feel like I've totally hijacked your thread but you've been so helpful and I'm not sure where else to ask.

When you were having you attacks so close together, what kind of things did you eat that kept you satisfied and not starving. I've been ok all day but it's almost 8pm now and I feel so HUNGRY! I am afraid to eat much though but I need something. I had a baked potatoe and some green beans for dinner, but I am HUNGRY! What can I snack on??? It was my snack last night that sent me into attack mode and I know especially at night we need to be more careful I need good food ideas of what to eat that keeps me from feeling like I'm starving myself
Pretty much it was low-fat vegan food. It's not that bad, really. Here are some food blogs:

http://fatfreevegan.com/
http://blog.fatfreevegan.com/

Both links are by the same person, Susan V. I met her back when I started eating along the McDougall Plan, which is a low-fat vegan program. Basically, the program recommends a high amount of starches, no meats, dairy, eggs, lots and lots of veggies. You can get more information at www.drmcdougall.com Susan started a blog and then it turned into a website as well.

Don't worry about hijacking. This is what I'm trying to explore through. Figuring out the gallbladder thing and how and when to treat it. I am going to start reading about gallstone formation as well if I get a chance this week.

__________________

Привет! Меня зовут Джен!
Hi! My name is Jen!



May the wind under your wings bear you where the sun sails and the moon walks - Gandalf

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