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Unprepared for Parenting (Ezzos, Pearls, Etc.) *Public* Support and information for those affected by the Ezzos, the Pearls, and other punitive and adversarial methods of child-rearing. A public forum. Before posting here, please read this sticky and keep guideline 23 in mind:
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02-23-2011, 01:17 PM | #211 | ||||
Rose Garden
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Pacific Northwest
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Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
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To the ultra non-coercive parent who believes that there should never be any sort of authority or directiveness in any type of human relationship at all, everything *not die-hard-100%-non-coercive* may look the same. But for the mama who sees herself as having a God-given responsibility as a parent to train, teach and nurture her child in gentle, respectful ways while respecting God's individual and direct work in that child's life, believing that their personality and uniqueness are God-given and important, and that the child has the right to disagree or hear from God differently than the parent does, have their "no" respected, etc. She is not going to see herself at all in the same category as the family that thinks God speaks only or primarily through the father, spanking literally cleanses a child's soul from sin and is required by God, that kids aren't supposed to have thoughts and desires apart from what their parents want for them, a good child should never be allowed to have a "no" (at least in relationships with authorities), and that the ultimate expression of godliness is basically to treat the father as though he is God. The non-coercive parent may put everything other than what they themselves do in the same category and call it something like "coercive parenting" and consider it WRONG with a capital W. But from another perspective there are all kinds of variations in beliefs and styles of parenting in those who do believe they have some level of God-given responsibility to discipline and "raise up" their children, and both the shades of belief and the way it works out in practice have almost infinite variations. Quote:
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Purple_Kangaroo Seeking truth and understanding. I have 4 precious children: A (born Feb 2001), M (June 2002), E (Aug 2005) and N (Dec 2013). AMEN! Last edited by purple_kangaroo; 02-23-2011 at 01:21 PM. Reason: trying to clarify some of my wordy ramblings. :) |
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02-23-2011, 01:30 PM | #212 |
Rose Garden
Why thank you, it is naturally blue...
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,278
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Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
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Last edited by Katigre; 11-22-2020 at 09:38 PM. |
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02-23-2011, 02:13 PM | #213 | |
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Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
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Elizabeth "Truth without love is divisive and hurtful & love without truth is anemic"--Pastor Estep Arise, cry out in the night...pour out your heart like water in the presence of the Lord; Lift up your hands to him for the lives of your children..; Lamentations 2:19 |
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02-23-2011, 02:19 PM | #214 | |
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Peace be with you.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: the sweet sunny south
Posts: 15,346
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Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
Thank you, Katigre! I think you've helped clarify something pretty important:
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02-23-2011, 02:30 PM | #215 |
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Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
As one of those who paints in broad strokes when it comes to patriarchy I have to say that I would hate to have complementarian moms feel not at home here! I know that there are many here that would disagree with me about infant baptism, but I wouldn't feel put out or excluded if there was a thread discussing that. Some believe that infant baptism is heretical - and I understand that. I wouldn't feel like this wasn't the place for me if a bunch of people were discussing why they believe it is heretical. If you really didn't want people to feel uncomfortable at GCM then we should be more careful to not bash spanking - I mean, there are a variety of Biblical opinions on that as well! When i first started reading gcm i was shocked at the outrage over spanking and CIO. I felt so attacked at first, but everyone made such good points that i kept coming back. I credit the ladies at gcm with introducing me to gbd, egalitarianism and the harsh mommas at gcm are the reason i no longer do CIO. I think it's good to speak the truth in love, but we shouldn't hesitate to speak what we believe the truth is.
Do I believe that soft comps (ala Grudem and Ware and Piper, or even Eggerich and DeMoss) are cut from the same cloth as Phillips and Botkin and Baucham? In a word - yes. The difference, I believe, lies in whether or not their views of patriarchy are inherently abusive. I would state that absolutely I believe the VF beliefs on patriarchy are inherently abusive. Eggerich, Grudem etc are not inherently abusive because, thanks to the grace of God, nearly all soft comp marriages are lived out as though they are egalitarian. The husband, since he really does love his wife, doesn't pull his trump card. But are they both patriarchal? Yes, I believe so. Are they both wrong? Yes, I believe so. Of course, these are just my beliefs, but I do believe them strongly. Patriarchy/comp both lead to huge issues with scripture. Both groups push the eternal subordination of the son, the logical fallacy that there is a difference between "ontological" and "functional" submission. Functional submission IS ontological submission if it is tied to something unchanageable about who you are - which it is in the case of women and Christ. I cannot support in any way something the diminishes the Trinity, and in that way I must paint with a broad brush because they all believe it and teach it. Because of their reading patriarchy (soft and hard comps do this) into the "creation order" you end up with systematic theology teachers like Grudem having to make claims like "Anyone who is helping you is subordinate to you, even God." which is a HUGE theological distortion! Piper claims now that gender roles are "central to Calvary - right there at the Cross." That is the kind of basis that soft comp has. So while I think that people living in soft comp lifestyles may not be sinning, and they may even be living out practically egalitarian relationships, I believe that the theological basis of ALL complementarianism causes huge distortions of Scripture and deep confusion over who God is and who the Trinity is. That is why I, personally, paint with a wide brush. There are enough problems that are interconnected within complementarianism for me to be wary of all of it. That said, I do believe that complementarianism isn't inherently abusive and is usually lived out in a way that belies it's theological roots. I know that most people - myself, my family and most of my friends included - just haven't or hadn't taken the time to work through the theology behind patriarchy/complementarianism and take a good hard look at the alternative. Maybe if someone who is comp comes to this thread and sees how serious an issue this is for Bible believing inerrantists they will see it's not just about feminism, but that all of us just truly desire to apply the Scripture as best we can. And I hope they would feel just as free to share their strong beliefs here as I apparently do. ETA: Out of respect for others, though, I will in my future postings on GCM focus on The Patriarchy Movement as opposed to patriachy/complementarianism in general. Last edited by rachelserine; 02-23-2011 at 02:39 PM. |
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02-23-2011, 03:18 PM | #216 | |
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Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
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Katigre can clarify if I'm wrong, but I think she and others are saying we need a distinction *in this thread*, in this forum (Unprepared for Parenting). There are lots of other places on GCM where it makes sense to talk about the theology of complementarianism vs egalitarianism. |
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02-23-2011, 03:19 PM | #217 |
Rose Garden
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,851
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Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
I agree with Ellen and Katigre. We probably should try to stick to the parenting aspects in this thread (telling myself that!)
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~ I Corinthians 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power ~
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02-23-2011, 03:24 PM | #218 |
Rose Garden
Why thank you, it is naturally blue...
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,278
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Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
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Last edited by Katigre; 11-22-2020 at 09:39 PM. |
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02-23-2011, 03:28 PM | #219 | |
Rose Trellis
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,963
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Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
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--- Realistically, many heathy complementatian marraiges do two things with their beliefs about inherent male authority. (1) They believe he has the authority, and (2) they also believe he should follow Scriptures' instruction to lay his authority down and lead as a sacrificial servant that treats his followers as more important than himself. Thats what the NT commands men in it's original setting to be doing (since they could not funtionally get rid of the authority granted to them by Roman law). I don't feel it's nessisary to add authority to men in order for them to be able follow the NT commands to lay it down... but it was a workable way to be both Christian and patriarchal then, and there are some marriages where it continues to form a workable structure. I believe patriarchy is a mistake. I believe it is not taught by Scripture -- but that Scripture does teach about it, in the sense of "here's how to live with the patriarchy that governs your society", so I can see how mistakes of interpretation are made. I don't think it's evil to be complementarian in the same way that it is evil to be uber-patriarchal (theologically, regarding salvation) and authoritative (in disobedience to various commands about laying down authority). But there are some beliefs in common, and the name of that common belief is 'patriarchy' -- it just is. It's a discriptive term, which is not meant as an insult.
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Everything written here is the musing and mumblings of an ordinary person. Even if I take myself too seriously, there's no reason for any of you to make the same mistake! Pam, 35 yo Christian for 20 y Married for 15 y Mother to "J" 8 yo, and "M" 5 yo INTJ, DYT 4, Canadian 1 more class until I'm done at Seminary Adjunct Faculty at a Bible College |
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02-23-2011, 03:40 PM | #220 | |
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Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
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---------- Post added at 04:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:39 PM ---------- Last edited by rachelserine; 02-23-2011 at 04:14 PM. |
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02-23-2011, 05:44 PM | #221 |
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Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
Ok, let me put on my mod hat and try to get this train back on the tracks (not that it wrecked, but it is going lots of places - some very important places, but....)
What we started out discussion was the places where VF and it's cousins were taking a theological message that was extra and counter Biblical - well beyond the point of 'difference of interpretation of scripture' or 'original language meaning'. I think the focus has become blurry and we have now started crossing meaning. We were NOT discussing Wife Only Submission as opposed to Mutual Submission or the concept of parental authority as we understand it here at GCM. They are fine to discuss in a spin-off, it's just that it wasn't the place the thread was headed. The point of the discussion started out focusing on on the 'step to far' that these ministry are taking to include life long submission of adult children to parents, daughters relationship with their father as apprentice and 'help mate' to a highly unhealthy level of 'intimacy' and the view held by some that salvation and accountability to God is through the father of the home (give the first problem on the list, which father might be an issue) as opposed to the priesthood of the believer/accountability of the indiviudal before God alone. If anyone wants to take up any of any of these issue from a purely theological standpoint, we can spin that off in that forum. Or if you want to hash out the long standing issue of WOS vs MS, another forum would be better than here (or check out the many threads already existing). I have been facinated and horrified by the information that has been presented by (indirectly) and about these 'ministries' and 'ministers' that fall within the Patriarchal Movement and would be interested in any futher discussion or information about the extra-Biblical or counter-Biblical ideas they are teaching in the name of Christianity.
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Elizabeth "Truth without love is divisive and hurtful & love without truth is anemic"--Pastor Estep Arise, cry out in the night...pour out your heart like water in the presence of the Lord; Lift up your hands to him for the lives of your children..; Lamentations 2:19 Last edited by CelticJourney; 02-24-2011 at 10:11 AM. |
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02-23-2011, 06:20 PM | #222 | |
Rose Garden
"You are on the path...exactly where you are meant to be."
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Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
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So, sure, a lot of people believe what you outlined above, but VF (back on topic ) certainly does not teach that. From what I understand, and from what my friends have experienced, VF teaches that any woman not under the "headship" of a male (preferably a spiritual leader or other family member if not a husband or father) is sinning.
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Barefooting through life with dh (2003), dd1 (11/05), dd2 (7/07), dd3 (11/09), and ds (8/13). Unless explicitly stated otherwise, any views or opinions presented in the above posts are solely those of BarefootBetsy, the GCM member, and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of anyone else in the entire world. Last edited by BarefootBetsy; 02-23-2011 at 06:23 PM. |
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02-24-2011, 10:06 AM | #223 | |
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"air-mannah Leen-dah" it means Sister Linda in Spanish
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Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
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02-24-2011, 06:00 PM | #224 |
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It is good to be Queen!
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Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
Wonder what they think of children whose parents are unbelievers? (That would have been me.)
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02-24-2011, 06:17 PM | #225 | |
Rose Trellis
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
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Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
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A young woman from a non-insider family would be considered under the (very poor) "headship" of her own father. They would, perhaps, consider it fortunate that her father was so disinterested in his "headship" that he lets her go among strangers and find the truth with them. She would be taught to honour, obey and support him as much as possible, given his fallen state... though she might also be encouraged to 'obey God before man' if he attempted to curtail her contact with the group. (They might also try to encourage her father and the rest of her family to convert, through her 'good' influence, and by respecting her dad.) I think a young man of a non-insider family would be considered his own "head" from quite a young definition of 'manhood'... I don't know for sure. Perhaps it would be the same as a young woman until he turned 18 or established his own household. (The above is based on vague reccolections with added guesswork based on what I have read... I am, by no means, anywhere near certain.)
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Everything written here is the musing and mumblings of an ordinary person. Even if I take myself too seriously, there's no reason for any of you to make the same mistake! Pam, 35 yo Christian for 20 y Married for 15 y Mother to "J" 8 yo, and "M" 5 yo INTJ, DYT 4, Canadian 1 more class until I'm done at Seminary Adjunct Faculty at a Bible College |
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