Possible ODD child... help!

mamafulks · 09-30-2013, 07:18 PM

First time poster and this isn't even about my own kiddos, I'm sorry!

I work at a day school as a teacher aide in one of the 2-year-old classes, and we have a boy in there whom I also had when he was an infant two year ago. Even back then, we suspected some sort of sensory-type issues, as he'd get so enraged that he'd pull his hair out and screech for hours - yes, at 4 months old! Now, he is two and still extremely easily irritated - literally, if we look at him and he's in a mood, we get a death glare and grunts. NO is his favorite word, of course. He's tiny and scrappy and cannot stand any of the other kiddos in the room, much less us the teachers. We looked up ODD and the description gits him to a T. Now...

1. How can we better interact with him? He doesn't like to be spoken to at all, which makes even simple, gentle instructions hard to pass along...

2. How can we address these issues with his parents? We work on a "stop light" system meaning green light = good day, yellow = rough day, red = they hit or were consistently defiant all day. We have had him on yellow and the occasional red for most of September but his parents seem to care very little.

Thank you so much for any feedback you have to offer!

Rabbit · 09-30-2013, 07:46 PM

His parents seem to care very little because there is absolutely nothing they can do about it. There is nothing they can do at home to change his feelings and his mood and his reactions. Nothing like a talking to, or a discipline trick, anyway. The red light systems tend to be extremely demoralizing to a child and his family, when these are the issues at play. They already know he never has a good day, and has no chance of having consistently green days. It's like trying to play a game where you know in advance you're always going to lose.

I would not, as a teacher, give any attention to the possibility of it being ODD. It's far too likely that the behavior you are seeing is a symptom of another problem, and not a stand alone diagnosis.

He needs to be evaluated by a developmental ped or psych. Is he receiving early intervention?

Dovenoir · 09-30-2013, 07:56 PM

op, are you looking for ways to approach him since he's hostile to verbal instructions? how can we guide you?
Posted via Mobile Device

Rabbit · 09-30-2013, 08:03 PM

My son was just like that. I had to quit my job, because he could not function in a group setting, and we knew it right away, when he was an infant.

Treating the underlying cause, like is he in constant pain he doesn't even know to tell you about because it's his normal? Does he have autism? Is he actually healthy, or is he small because physically something is wrong? is what likely needs to happen.

Not liking to be spoken to at all is such a heartbreaking symptom, along with all the daily hours of scream crying as a four month old. That kind of crying causes measurable brain damage. No child does it to themselves out of having a temper or a personality issue.

This is a doctor level issue, not daycare level. On a daycare level, the best you can do is compassionately point out that his behavior is significantly different from the norm, and requires evaluation by a professional to move forward, and compassionately care for him until he gets that help.

Luciola · 09-30-2013, 08:12 PM

If he is not already receiving services, can you put a referral in? In my state, anyone can make the referral and (if parents are willing) the state must provide the eval w/in 45 days.

I agree - the red light system is not going to show any positive changes for this child. I don't love them at any age but particularly not at two with a child who has been on red or yellow for the better part of a month.

Chaos Coordinator · 09-30-2013, 08:12 PM

He's two. He's a baby. My two year old doesn't do squat the first time he's asked and he's constantly putting the smack down on his older brother too. And as a parent, when developmentally normal behavior is reported to me as a problem I don't put much stock in it.

HOWEVER - and this is a big however - my older son is also different. I knew intuitively from infancy that he was not like other children. And I could never put my finger on exactly how. He cried a ton as an infant. He played differently but I could not explain how (and still struggle to put words to it, but I have a background in child development and preschool teaching and just knew somehow that it wasnt "healthy play" but abnormal) He is also gifted and therefore did not qualify for services. As a parent, my first lines of defense have been learning OT techniques used for SPD and implementing them at home, and an elimination type diet which includes not only food but also special cosmetics, supplements, art supplies and even clothing as he is allergic to latex (spandex) and rubber. He is even discouraged from touching the tires of his bike, the walls which are covered in latex paint, some of his toys have to be checked carefully or taped over, etc. the world in general is not a safe place for him due to his rubber allergy. Play areas have rubber mats, even our church playground has recycled tire chips instead of wood chips. I cannot make it perfectly friendly but I can cover as many bases as humanly possible and it is not by any means a simple undertaking but it has turned him into a different child.

But what can you do as his teacher? You can't implement dietary changes like that obviously. You can learn therapy techniques though, and implement them. You can also read books about parenting hurting children. Start with The Out of Sync Child, Beyond Logic Consequences and Control, and oh I think the other one I'm thinking of is called The Connected Child. Also look up and absorb as much as you possibly can about the work of Dr Karyn Purvis. Also check out YouTube videos by Christine Moers, she's outstanding.

Eta: yes the book is called The Connected Child and Dr Purvis is actually one of the authors listed.

Dovenoir · 09-30-2013, 08:14 PM

what would that compassionate care in the meantime look like to you?
Posted via Mobile Device

TenderLovingWillow · 09-30-2013, 08:14 PM

.

Rabbit · 09-30-2013, 08:19 PM

Do not for one second assume a parent who appears disinterested is actually disinterested. Not for one second. Parents love their children. This is an OVERWHELMING issue to parent, and there are no mainstream, easily accessible answers. Most advice handed out over the counter is destructive to such children. The safest face in public is one that is closed and emotionless to people who do not deeply love and are not deeply in relationship with these parents, who aren't there in these people's lives on days they're not paid to be there.

Compassionate care means keeping him safe, fed, clean and keeping him as calm as his calm gets, while enforcing basic boundaries so that everybody else is also safe and fed and clean. Chaos Coordinator's book list is fantastic for figuring out how to do that.

In the end, school may not be a good fit for him, at 2 years old.

Luciola · 09-30-2013, 08:23 PM

Thank you Rabbit for saying that so much better than I could.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

Chaos Coordinator · 09-30-2013, 08:27 PM

By therapy techniques I mean it may be things like rolling a knobby ball on his arms and legs for him, encouraging him to press his feet against your hands (joint compression) show him how to build a fort of blankets for a little sensory reprieve, give him a squish box - a laundry basket full of pillows will work and be easy to set up.

Look up and follow Angie Voss on Pinterest and/or Facebook. We also use weighted pads and blankets. I'm trying to think of other examples but they have become so commonplace in our home that I don't notice them anymore

a bilibo, a balance board, tons of squish games (my son likes to lay under the sofa cushions and have us sit "on the couch")

Luciola · 09-30-2013, 08:34 PM

Just to add to that list - heavy work - my DD loves to fill up tubs and push them around. Chewy toys and things to squeeze have made a BIG difference around here.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

Chaos Coordinator · 09-30-2013, 08:40 PM

The laundry basket could serve double as an opportunity for heavy work. Fill it up with books and have him push it across the classroom. See If it helps.

Rabbit · 09-30-2013, 09:14 PM

Not all therapy techniques are legal/insurance issues appropriate for non-trained school personnel. I could not touch a child outside of an emergency, or ask them to move heavy things.

Dovenoir · 09-30-2013, 09:57 PM

I'm not sure the limits are quite the same for daycare or preschool. but I could be wrong.
Posted via Mobile Device

09-30-2013, 07:18 PM	#1
mamafulks Seedling Rose 2-time HG survivor with 2 awesome boys as my reward Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Memphis Posts: 15	Possible ODD child... help! First time poster and this isn't even about my own kiddos, I'm sorry! I work at a day school as a teacher aide in one of the 2-year-old classes, and we have a boy in there whom I also had when he was an infant two year ago. Even back then, we suspected some sort of sensory-type issues, as he'd get so enraged that he'd pull his hair out and screech for hours - yes, at 4 months old! Now, he is two and still extremely easily irritated - literally, if we look at him and he's in a mood, we get a death glare and grunts. NO is his favorite word, of course. He's tiny and scrappy and cannot stand any of the other kiddos in the room, much less us the teachers. We looked up ODD and the description gits him to a T. Now... 1. How can we better interact with him? He doesn't like to be spoken to at all, which makes even simple, gentle instructions hard to pass along... 2. How can we address these issues with his parents? We work on a "stop light" system meaning green light = good day, yellow = rough day, red = they hit or were consistently defiant all day. We have had him on yellow and the occasional red for most of September but his parents seem to care very little. Thank you so much for any feedback you have to offer!

09-30-2013, 07:46 PM	#2
Rabbit Deactivated You know how we say, "It works both ways!" Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: In the Neighborhood Posts: 39,704	Re: Possible ODD child... help! His parents seem to care very little because there is absolutely nothing they can do about it. There is nothing they can do at home to change his feelings and his mood and his reactions. Nothing like a talking to, or a discipline trick, anyway. The red light systems tend to be extremely demoralizing to a child and his family, when these are the issues at play. They already know he never has a good day, and has no chance of having consistently green days. It's like trying to play a game where you know in advance you're always going to lose. I would not, as a teacher, give any attention to the possibility of it being ODD. It's far too likely that the behavior you are seeing is a symptom of another problem, and not a stand alone diagnosis. He needs to be evaluated by a developmental ped or psych. Is he receiving early intervention?

09-30-2013, 07:56 PM	#3
Dovenoir Rose Garden Dove - noir Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Cincy, OH Posts: 5,600	Re: Possible ODD child... help! op, are you looking for ways to approach him since he's hostile to verbal instructions? how can we guide you? Posted via Mobile Device

09-30-2013, 08:03 PM	#4
Rabbit Deactivated You know how we say, "It works both ways!" Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: In the Neighborhood Posts: 39,704	Re: Possible ODD child... help! My son was just like that. I had to quit my job, because he could not function in a group setting, and we knew it right away, when he was an infant. Treating the underlying cause, like is he in constant pain he doesn't even know to tell you about because it's his normal? Does he have autism? Is he actually healthy, or is he small because physically something is wrong? is what likely needs to happen. Not liking to be spoken to at all is such a heartbreaking symptom, along with all the daily hours of scream crying as a four month old. That kind of crying causes measurable brain damage. No child does it to themselves out of having a temper or a personality issue. This is a doctor level issue, not daycare level. On a daycare level, the best you can do is compassionately point out that his behavior is significantly different from the norm, and requires evaluation by a professional to move forward, and compassionately care for him until he gets that help.

09-30-2013, 08:12 PM	#5
Luciola Rose Trellis iNFp Type 2/1 Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 2,130	Re: Possible ODD child... help! If he is not already receiving services, can you put a referral in? In my state, anyone can make the referral and (if parents are willing) the state must provide the eval w/in 45 days. I agree - the red light system is not going to show any positive changes for this child. I don't love them at any age but particularly not at two with a child who has been on red or yellow for the better part of a month. Last edited by Luciola; 10-29-2013 at 09:05 PM.

09-30-2013, 08:12 PM	#6
Chaos Coordinator Rose Garden They need freedom to just be fluffy mashed potatoes and feel their fluffy feelings. Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Up to my earballs in little boys. Posts: 20,259	Re: Possible ODD child... help! He's two. He's a baby. My two year old doesn't do squat the first time he's asked and he's constantly putting the smack down on his older brother too. And as a parent, when developmentally normal behavior is reported to me as a problem I don't put much stock in it. HOWEVER - and this is a big however - my older son is also different. I knew intuitively from infancy that he was not like other children. And I could never put my finger on exactly how. He cried a ton as an infant. He played differently but I could not explain how (and still struggle to put words to it, but I have a background in child development and preschool teaching and just knew somehow that it wasnt "healthy play" but abnormal) He is also gifted and therefore did not qualify for services. As a parent, my first lines of defense have been learning OT techniques used for SPD and implementing them at home, and an elimination type diet which includes not only food but also special cosmetics, supplements, art supplies and even clothing as he is allergic to latex (spandex) and rubber. He is even discouraged from touching the tires of his bike, the walls which are covered in latex paint, some of his toys have to be checked carefully or taped over, etc. the world in general is not a safe place for him due to his rubber allergy. Play areas have rubber mats, even our church playground has recycled tire chips instead of wood chips. I cannot make it perfectly friendly but I can cover as many bases as humanly possible and it is not by any means a simple undertaking but it has turned him into a different child. But what can you do as his teacher? You can't implement dietary changes like that obviously. You can learn therapy techniques though, and implement them. You can also read books about parenting hurting children. Start with The Out of Sync Child, Beyond Logic Consequences and Control, and oh I think the other one I'm thinking of is called The Connected Child. Also look up and absorb as much as you possibly can about the work of Dr Karyn Purvis. Also check out YouTube videos by Christine Moers, she's outstanding. Eta: yes the book is called The Connected Child and Dr Purvis is actually one of the authors listed. __________________ Joy Progressive Methodist Enfp mama to Sparrow, 10 Zion, 7.5 Baby Gus, 4.5 Preschool teacher. Musician. Timelord. Www.justicemercymayhem.wordpress.com "What you plant in the kingdom will surely grow, and what you grow with love will surely bloom, and the fruit of the spirit will come back to you." Last edited by Chaos Coordinator; 09-30-2013 at 08:19 PM.

09-30-2013, 08:14 PM	#7
Dovenoir Rose Garden Dove - noir Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Cincy, OH Posts: 5,600	Re: Possible ODD child... help! what would that compassionate care in the meantime look like to you? Posted via Mobile Device

09-30-2013, 08:14 PM	#8
TenderLovingWillow Rose Garden Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 8,673	Re: Possible ODD child... help! . __________________ WILLOW Mom to Four Munchkins Birth Doula Childbirth Educator Babywearing Educator Vegetarian Last edited by TenderLovingWillow; 09-30-2013 at 08:30 PM.*

09-30-2013, 08:19 PM	#9
Rabbit Deactivated You know how we say, "It works both ways!" Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: In the Neighborhood Posts: 39,704	Re: Possible ODD child... help! Do not for one second assume a parent who appears disinterested is actually disinterested. Not for one second. Parents love their children. This is an OVERWHELMING issue to parent, and there are no mainstream, easily accessible answers. Most advice handed out over the counter is destructive to such children. The safest face in public is one that is closed and emotionless to people who do not deeply love and are not deeply in relationship with these parents, who aren't there in these people's lives on days they're not paid to be there. Compassionate care means keeping him safe, fed, clean and keeping him as calm as his calm gets, while enforcing basic boundaries so that everybody else is also safe and fed and clean. Chaos Coordinator's book list is fantastic for figuring out how to do that. In the end, school may not be a good fit for him, at 2 years old.

09-30-2013, 08:23 PM	#10
Luciola Rose Trellis iNFp Type 2/1 Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 2,130	Thank you Rabbit for saying that so much better than I could. Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2 Last edited by Luciola; 10-29-2013 at 09:05 PM.

09-30-2013, 08:27 PM	#11
Chaos Coordinator Rose Garden They need freedom to just be fluffy mashed potatoes and feel their fluffy feelings. Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Up to my earballs in little boys. Posts: 20,259	Re: Possible ODD child... help! By therapy techniques I mean it may be things like rolling a knobby ball on his arms and legs for him, encouraging him to press his feet against your hands (joint compression) show him how to build a fort of blankets for a little sensory reprieve, give him a squish box - a laundry basket full of pillows will work and be easy to set up. Look up and follow Angie Voss on Pinterest and/or Facebook. We also use weighted pads and blankets. I'm trying to think of other examples but they have become so commonplace in our home that I don't notice them anymore a bilibo, a balance board, tons of squish games (my son likes to lay under the sofa cushions and have us sit "on the couch") __________________ Joy Progressive Methodist Enfp mama to Sparrow, 10 Zion, 7.5 Baby Gus, 4.5 Preschool teacher. Musician. Timelord. Www.justicemercymayhem.wordpress.com "What you plant in the kingdom will surely grow, and what you grow with love will surely bloom, and the fruit of the spirit will come back to you."

09-30-2013, 08:34 PM	#12
Luciola Rose Trellis iNFp Type 2/1 Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 2,130	Just to add to that list - heavy work - my DD loves to fill up tubs and push them around. Chewy toys and things to squeeze have made a BIG difference around here. Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2 Last edited by Luciola; 10-29-2013 at 09:06 PM.

09-30-2013, 08:40 PM	#13
Chaos Coordinator Rose Garden They need freedom to just be fluffy mashed potatoes and feel their fluffy feelings. Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Up to my earballs in little boys. Posts: 20,259	Re: Possible ODD child... help! The laundry basket could serve double as an opportunity for heavy work. Fill it up with books and have him push it across the classroom. See If it helps. __________________ Joy Progressive Methodist Enfp mama to Sparrow, 10 Zion, 7.5 Baby Gus, 4.5 Preschool teacher. Musician. Timelord. Www.justicemercymayhem.wordpress.com "What you plant in the kingdom will surely grow, and what you grow with love will surely bloom, and the fruit of the spirit will come back to you."

09-30-2013, 09:14 PM	#14
Rabbit Deactivated You know how we say, "It works both ways!" Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: In the Neighborhood Posts: 39,704	Re: Possible ODD child... help! Not all therapy techniques are legal/insurance issues appropriate for non-trained school personnel. I could not touch a child outside of an emergency, or ask them to move heavy things.

09-30-2013, 09:57 PM	#15
Dovenoir Rose Garden Dove - noir Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Cincy, OH Posts: 5,600	Re: Possible ODD child... help! I'm not sure the limits are quite the same for daycare or preschool. but I could be wrong. Posted via Mobile Device

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