Parenting with Love and Logic? and a short rant!

Has anyone heard of this book? My brother and his wife keep raving about it and how we need to implement their techniques with our kids. My brother has one child, a two yearold son who routinely hits my girls, and so far their techniques are not working to stop the violence. My three yearold is afraid of going to their house now!

We have five kids, four girls and our baby boy. And my brother and wife are being really know-it-all-ish about child rearing, since it's widely gossiped among our family that we are big time failures at it.

Mostly because my three year old has pervasive developmental disorder, which they all disbelieve and think she's just "strong willed" and hasn't been brought up right, and because my 17mon old daughter keeps grabing peoples coffee cups and pouring/spilling them, apparently "on-purpose because she hasn't been taught boundries". She did that at my Grandmothers house, and my dad grabbed her and swiftly swatted her behind sternly saying "NO!". She burst into tears, which I knew meant, "why are you yelling at me, you hurt me, you scared me!". I swooped her out of the room shaking with anger at them all. And I have until my sons hospital stay, never let them out of my sight with my family again. My Dh has repeatedly told my parents not to discipline our children, that this was our job, not theirs, but they let it be known they think we are incompetent, and do it anyway. How do I handle this!

Okay I'm venting, sorry. I actually really want to know some more about this book, 'Parenting with Love and Logic", and some reviews of it, and how it compares to GBD.
Thanks, Rachel

[MarynMunchkins]

We've discussed L&L here before, although I haven't actually read it. It seems to be the general consensus that it's fine for older kids who have developed logic, but not so great for preschoolers. FWIW, they do have a statement condemning spanking, so if people are choosing to do that, they aren't following the book.

Special needs kids aren't understood by the general public. That's why they're special. Don't let ignorance make up doubt yourself.

on the cups. That's what toddlers do!

I get their email tips. Sometimes I don't like the tone of them. They are ok, but I like Scott Turansky and Joanne Miller's stuff better (and I have a 10 yo with issues and a neighbor girl with PDD & other issues that seems to have decided we're part of her family, too ).

www.biblicalparenting.org (btw, as far as I know, they aren't "anti-spanking" but I know their stuff has promoted a lot more of a positive atmosphere in our house and helped us work through some really tough spots).

although I personally think it can be adapted as both a punitive or nonpunitive method depending on how you choose to use it.

I think the reason I've shied away from it because I've run into a family at church that uses it punitively and it just left me with a really icky feeling .

[hsgbdmama]

How awful that your family doesn't take the time or effort to understand your dc's issues!

I have read parts of it, and with anything, you take the parts that can work for you and discard the rest. There were parts that seemed pretty harsh to me; however, they do support natural consequences.

One that I remember is when the child dwadles with getting coats, shoes and socks on. State that you will be leaving in x minutes, and they will be going "as is" when the x minutes is up. Give them countdowns (i.e., if you said 10 minutes, perhaps give reminders at 7, 5, 3, 2 and 1 minute), and when the time is up, you get everyone into the car -- as is. A friend of mine did this with her dd who dwadled, and several times dropped dd's shoes and socks off at the school with dd (she also explained to the teacher why dd was coming into class without shoes and socks on ), but after a few times of that happening, dd got the idea.

I think that Crystal's "Five Steps" would be helpful in this situation as well.

[snlmama]

I knew a lot more about parenting when my oldest was 2 than I do now.

Sorry they are giving you a hard time. I agree w/ the others about L&L. I've only seen it used punitively and I know some group in our area has a class and they *do* promote spanking (as a "logical" consequence, nonetheless ), but my understanding of the basic program is that it doesn't.

[ArmsOfLove]

Well, technically it *is* punitive. I would not recommend it for anyone unless they had an older child who needed black and white boundaries with everything and then I'd cautiously recommend it. For a toddler it's just plain punitive. What I believe is that it's better than much of the other stuff out there and because it doesn't advocate for spanking I believe it can be a transitionary thing--especially if one spouse can't let go of needing *something* extra

As for your family, have you read the bean dip post stickied in the GD forum?

I would not allow people who insisted on punishing (because it's not discipline, it's punishment) my children be around them. It's setting them up for dysfunctional behavior and failure and setting my children up to be treated badly by people who are supposed to care for them

Crystal, can you expand a little on your comment that L&L is punitive? I've skimmed the book...haven't read it thoroughly. I think I do recall being turned off by the author saying it was ok to spank very young children for danger issues. Maybe I'm confusing that with another book, but I was almost positive it was that book. Other than that, I was under the impression that the advice was in line with Barbara Coloroso's, which I don't find at all punitive. In fact, she has an entire chapter in the revised edition of her book that talks about the dangers/pitfalls of rewards and punishments.

I'd like to hear your opinion on the punitive nature of L&L. Thanks!

[ArmsOfLove]

Well, presenting an approach that is founded upon logical consequences is thinking in a punitive frame--if you do this then I'll make this happen. There is a place, with an older child, for proactive logical consequences, where the natural consequences are too much. But, if I understand this book correctly, and I haven't read it but I have talked with lots of people who have, there is no distinction between using it for a baby and for a teen, and there seems to be confusion (if not in the book at least among many who have read it) about the difference between natural and logical consequences.

If someone is in a punitive frame of mind already, and not likely to leave it, this is a better option, a step away from spanking! But it's not non-punitive.

Well, presenting an approach that is founded upon logical consequences is thinking in a punitive frame--if you do this then I'll make this happen.

I see your point. However, don't most parents of small children (those not yet capable of understanding logical consequences) use logical consequences some of the time? For example, if you continue to throw the ball in the house, you lose the ball for a while. If you color on the walls, I put the crayons up for a few days. If you run into the street, we go inside for the afternoon. I've seen that type of thing recommended here often. I see all those examples as logical consequences, yet not punitive. I don't know. Maybe I'm missing something. I use things like this from time to time, yet I don't consider myself a punitive parent.

ETA: I see "punitive" as adding something extra to drive the lesson home.

[ArmsOfLove]

Well, I present what you are talking about as framed in the mindset of preventing natural consequences rather than imposing logical consequences. The ball is taken away so that the natural consequence of something being broken is prevented. If you throw your food it tells me you're done and I take it away so that you won't create the natural consequence of making a bigger mess for me. I ask myself, using my wisdom and experience, if the child is ready to survive and learn from the natural consequence. If not, I prevent it, if yes, I allow it. At this age it's mostly in the mindset

Gotcha! Thanks!