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Unprepared for Parenting (Ezzos, Pearls, Etc.) *Public* Support and information for those affected by the Ezzos, the Pearls, and other punitive and adversarial methods of child-rearing.
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23. No posts harshly dissecting parenting moments of others since we desire to humbly cultivate a heart attitude of grace and not judgment towards other mamas. We all struggle at times as parents and have much to learn, and GCM's focus is to provide tools and information for each of us to parent more effectively. Posts voicing some frustration regarding choices made by others can be okay, but it needs to be within the overall context of seeking understanding or ideas for better responses in the future.

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Old 02-19-2011, 05:43 PM   #136
purple_kangaroo
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjy9343 View Post
If HSLDA is the Home School Legal Defense Association, then there was once a very great and legitimate need for them. My parents started back in the 80's and there was very real threat where we were at that time that if you were caught, your children would be taken from you and placed into foster care. If you joined them for a fairly nominal fee, they would come and defend you and get your kids back into your custody. They are also the ones that got many of the laws changed or overturned so that people are able to home school in peace.
They still do provide these services, as well as letting people know about pending legislation that they feel affects homeschool families or could infringe on parental and/or homeschooling rights.
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Old 02-19-2011, 05:53 PM   #137
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

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Originally Posted by purple_kangaroo View Post
They still do provide these services, as well as letting people know about pending legislation that they feel affects homeschool families or could infringe on parental and/or homeschooling rights.
The problem is 'they' have undermined their credibility by involving themselves in things outside of home school defense. You can't be the figure head of an organization like that AND talk and write about things such as Harris does and not have it effect the organization.
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Old 02-19-2011, 05:56 PM   #138
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

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The problem is 'they' have undermined their credibility by involving themselves in things outside of home school defense. You can't be the figure head of an organization like that AND talk and write about things such as Harris does and not have it effect the organization.

And it does leave some HSers feeling a tad defenseless beacuse they refuse to align with them
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Old 02-19-2011, 06:00 PM   #139
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

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Originally Posted by BarefootBetsy View Post
Who were you talking to? I know it's not me because I've never mentioned BJU in this thread, to my knowledge. However, I'd be willing to bet that if you addressed your post to someone specific, you'd probably be more likely to get an answer. This thread has been all over the place, after all!

I'm pretty sure that you were addressing the post about the QF book author to me though. I'm keeping him on the list with his connection listed that he wrote that book. That's the only connection, to my knowledge, as well, but it's a very influential book in the movement which is why I listed him WITH that as his only connection. I'll specify that it's his only connection and that the book was not published by VF or anything.
Thanks, BarefootBetsy. I see your point, but I'm just not sure that someone should be boycotted or included in a list of folks involved with VF just because they wrote a book that is promoted and used by VF a lot. I mean, God wrote a book that gets quoted and used a lot by all sorts of people to support heresy, but that doesn't mean he agrees with it.

Yes, by requoting myself I just wanted to re-clarify what I was saying about different definitions of partiarchy in the thread in general, but specifically in light of comments made by TestifyToLove,ArmsOfLove and cobluegirl. I think there's a big difference between patriarchy as a broad idea that women and men have different roles or spiritual leadership, vs. The Patriarchy Movement as taught by people like Vision Forum, Patriarch magazine, etc.

I am a little confused about the difference between patriarchal in this broader sense vs. complementarian or any other belief that there is some difference in role or headship between men and women.

I don't at this point in my life necessarily believe that Scripture allows for women to hold the role of pastor, and I do think there is certainly room to believe/argue that the Bible talks about some sort of headship or spiritual authority held by the husband/father in a family, along with the idea of mutual submission of husbands and wives and all believers to each other. I'm not ready to throw out everything I understand the Bible to say about the existence of authority and headship within nations, the church, and families. But I am staunchly against most of what VF and those in the Patriarchy Movement teach. Putting anyone that believes there is any difference in role or responsibility between men and women in any context or any way into that camp as "associated with Vision Forum" seems really unreasonable to me, as that would probably include most of Christendom.

---------- Post added at 01:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by elcollins View Post
The problem is 'they' have undermined their credibility by involving themselves in things outside of home school defense. You can't be the figure head of an organization like that AND talk and write about things such as Harris does and not have it effect the organization.
I'm not exactly sure of all the specifics or what you're referring to, elcollins, but I don't necessarily think that everyone involved with HSLDA speaks for the whole of the organization in their writings and speaking on their own outside the context of that organization. I expect there are people within the organization who hold very different views from each other on many topics, just as our local homeschool group allows people from very different perspectives to hold membership and be involved in helping put on events.
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Old 02-19-2011, 06:16 PM   #140
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
I'm not exactly sure of all the specifics or what you're referring to, elcollins, but I don't necessarily think that everyone involved with HSLDA speaks for the whole of the organization in their writings and speaking on their own outside the context of that organization. I expect there are people within the organization who hold very different views from each other on many topics, just as our local homeschool group allows people from very different perspectives to hold membership and be involved in helping put on events.
I agree. ON THE OTHER HAND if you are the visiable, recognizable (well-paid) head of an organization and you preach, teach, write things, people will associate it with the organization and it's credibility will suffer accordingly. I am not a member of HSLD for exactly that reason - they do good thing for homeschooling, but some of it's leadership brings criticism and reproach from within and outside of the Christian community.
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Old 02-19-2011, 06:34 PM   #141
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

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Originally Posted by Hermana Linda View Post
Nancy Campbell runs Above Rubies, right?

---------- Post added at 03:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:11 PM ----------

Well, she sells their books.

---------- Post added at 03:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------

Make that, they publish her books.

Yes, Above Rubies.

Wow, that is sad. I'm not QF but I find AR to be very inspiring. I may write to her and ask her if she really believes all that yuck.
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Old 02-19-2011, 06:36 PM   #142
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Purple_Kangaroo - Ah, I think you misunderstand the reason for the list... my purpose was to simply make a list so people would know what teachers/books/organizations to watch out for and what companies were affiliated - certainly not specifically for boycotting purposes I mean, people can do with this knowledge what they will, but my purpose was not to encourage people to boycott or to smear anyone's name.

After all, these people are proud of what they believe or they wouldn't believe it and promote it in the way they do

Besides that, I think it's important to know the ties and how various people, organizations, and books are connected. Especially since this stuff looks so innocuous from the outside and picking up a book like Provan's could easily lead people down this path. Folks who support VF could easily recommend this book to someone who might read it without as much discernment as they would if they'd known it was a book commonly referred to by people in this movement.

That's all I intended. Does that help clarify?
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Old 02-19-2011, 06:41 PM   #143
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

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Originally Posted by LisaM View Post
Yes, Above Rubies.

Wow, that is sad. I'm not QF but I find AR to be very inspiring. I may write to her and ask her if she really believes all that yuck.
she's always supported that life. I have AR's going back decades and they were very Patriarchal.
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Old 02-19-2011, 07:11 PM   #144
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Purple Kangaroo, you seem very normal and very much grounded in reality. But remember back in the 80's when people were beginning to HS you typically did it because you were some sort of fringe wing nut (I can remember families that made the Pearls look mainstream by comparison) or your child had some sort of disability that made regular schooling difficult or even impossible. BJU put out (at that time anyway) great text books for HS. The problem is that because they have always been vocal in their beliefs they have been tied to the true fringe like ATI and VF since those groups espouse views that are at first blush very closely related. Bob Jones also has said many things that have been taken out of context and grossly distorted, so it is very easy to link him with those and other groups. It is beyond unfair and I don't like it, but there is not much we can do about it. I also agree with elcollins. Like it or not, when you are the face of an organization your views are taken to be the official position of that organization. If someone who was an intern ten years ago or some entry level kid said those things then I would think her thoughts are a little harsh. But I think that it also show goes to show how we really do need to fact check what we read or hear before we make a decision about someone or an organization.
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Old 02-19-2011, 07:14 PM   #145
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

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Originally Posted by elcollins View Post
I agree. ON THE OTHER HAND if you are the visiable, recognizable (well-paid) head of an organization and you preach, teach, write things, people will associate it with the organization and it's credibility will suffer accordingly. I am not a member of HSLD for exactly that reason - they do good thing for homeschooling, but some of it's leadership brings criticism and reproach from within and outside of the Christian community.
I see your point. I guess for me it would also depend largely on whether the leadership of the organization as a whole had that flavor, or whether it was counterbalanced by others in the leadership of the organization with different views. And whether it was relevant to the purpose of the organization or not.

To some extent it really depends for me on the purpose and focus of the organization. I'm going to be a lot more careful about the theology of the lead pastor of a church I'm considering joining than the theology of the president of a rabbit club, partly just because theology isn't going to have all that much impact on how well someone does their job of running rabbit shows vs. running a church.

HSLDA is an organization that doesn't require members or participating organizations to agree to any statement of faith or even identify themselves with any religion at all in order to be members or receive group discounts or other benefits. Their focus is on legally defending the right to homeschool, so I'm a lot less cautious about the views of the leadership than I would be about joining an organization that was specifically engaged in spiritual teaching or required adherence to a particular statement of faith.

Who is the "Harris" you are talking about, anyway? I couldn't find anyone named Harris listed on the HSLDA website as having a role in the organization. The President is J. Michael Smith, Esq, and I admit I don't really know anything about him. Michael Farris is the other founder.
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Old 02-19-2011, 07:27 PM   #146
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

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Michael Farris is the other founder.
Opps - typo.
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Old 02-19-2011, 08:29 PM   #147
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Purple, I see your point about HSLDA
I think, as Betsy pointed out, the list she compiled is more a "for your information and awareness" list, not necessarily a "boycott" list.
I don't know of an alternative to the HSLDA, and although I am dismayed to realize the connections to a belief system which I hate, and I will continue to support them. That is quite a bit different, in my mind, than purchasing books from the VF website or attending a conference where a Patriarchal speaker would be giving a message. kwim?

This thread has been very interesting to me, thank you all so much for participating!
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Old 02-19-2011, 09:05 PM   #148
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

TTL mentioned (to me, in person, not on the board) that there's an alternative to the HSLDA for legal issues... I cannot remember what it was. I'll ask her tomorrow if she doesn't come back to the thread by then. I need to know anyhow because I would like to consider the pros and cons of using the alternative.

And no, I was definitely NOT compiling a boycott list The thought never even crossed my mind and it took me a good long while to even figure out what Purple was talking about

I just gathered together some info for informational purposes. That's all. Do with the info what you will. Some people don't care where companies spend their $ - others do. Personally, I mostly just care that I avoid teachers and organizations that promote false doctrine - especially if their actual teachings seem innocent enough, but they're working with a company like VF or giving them funding.
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Old 02-19-2011, 10:29 PM   #149
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

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Originally Posted by rjy9343 View Post
Purple Kangaroo, you seem very normal and very much grounded in reality. But remember back in the 80's when people were beginning to HS you typically did it because you were some sort of fringe nut or your child had some sort of disability that made regular schooling difficult or even impossible.
Hey, I was being homeschooled back in the 70s and 80s. We were actually homeschooling before it was legal in our state. My mom started teaching me at home because I was reading fluently but the public school wouldn't let me into kindergarten because I wasn't old enough. And there were actually a fairly substantial group of non-christian and/or Christian-but-non-militant homeschoolers even back then.There have always been a variety of types of people and reasons for homeschooling within the movement. But the fact that so many homeschooling seminars featured speakers like Lindvall, Barth, Wilson/Wilkins, Schlissel, etc. did I think suck a lot of families into the more Patriarchy-movement type of teachings than probably would have otherwise gotten involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjy9343 View Post
But I think that it also show goes to show how we really do need to fact check what we read or hear before we make a decision about someone or an organization.
ITA!!!
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Old 02-19-2011, 10:32 PM   #150
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

I walked out of a seminar being given at our HS convention a few years ago by Michael Ferris when he allowed the dialogue with the audience to turn to all the legal ways to cause your children pain in public and more likely avoid having CPS called on you. I have NO respect for the man.
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  • (3)navbar_link
  • (60)option
  • (1)pagenav
  • (1)pagenav_curpage
  • (8)pagenav_pagelink
  • (15)post_groan_box
  • (1)post_groan_javascript
  • (1)post_groan_navbar_search
  • (15)post_thanks_box
  • (14)post_thanks_box_bit
  • (1)post_thanks_javascript
  • (1)post_thanks_navbar_search
  • (7)post_thanks_postbit_legacy
  • (15)postbit_legacy
  • (15)postbit_onlinestatus
  • (145)postbit_reputation
  • (15)postbit_wrapper
  • (4)showthread_bookmarksite
  • (1)smqre_editor_button
  • (1)spacer_close
  • (1)spacer_open
  • (1)tagbit_wrapper 

Phrase Groups Available:
  • global
  • inlinemod
  • postbit
  • posting
  • reputationlevel
  • showthread
Included Files:
  • ./showthread.php
  • ./global.php
  • ./includes/init.php
  • ./includes/class_core.php
  • ./includes/config.php
  • ./includes/functions.php
  • ./includes/class_hook.php
  • ./includes/functions_notice.php
  • ./mobiquo/smartbanner.php
  • ./mobiquo/include/classTTConnection.php
  • ./mobiquo/smartbanner/head.inc.php
  • ./includes/functions_bigthree.php
  • ./includes/class_postbit.php
  • ./includes/class_bbcode.php
  • ./includes/functions_reputation.php
  • ./includes/adminfunctions_template.php
  • ./includes/functions_misc.php
  • ./includes/functions_post_thanks.php
  • ./includes/functions_post_groan.php 

Hooks Called:
  • init_startup
  • cache_permissions
  • fetch_threadinfo_query
  • fetch_threadinfo
  • fetch_foruminfo
  • style_fetch
  • cache_templates
  • global_start
  • parse_templates
  • fetch_musername
  • notices_check_start
  • global_setup_complete
  • showthread_start
  • template_groups
  • template_safe_functions
  • template_compile
  • showthread_getinfo
  • forumjump
  • showthread_post_start
  • showthread_query_postids
  • showthread_query
  • bbcode_fetch_tags
  • bbcode_create
  • showthread_postbit_create
  • postbit_factory
  • postbit_display_start
  • post_thanks_function_post_thanks_off_start
  • post_thanks_function_post_thanks_off_end
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_start
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_end
  • post_thanks_function_thanked_already_start
  • post_thanks_function_thanked_already_end
  • post_groan_function_post_groan_off_start
  • post_groan_function_post_groan_off_end
  • post_groan_function_fetch_groans_start
  • post_groan_function_fetch_groans_end
  • post_groan_function_groaned_already_start
  • post_groan_function_groaned_already_end
  • reputation_image
  • bbcode_parse_start
  • postbit_imicons
  • bbcode_parse_complete_precache
  • bbcode_parse_complete
  • postbit_display_complete
  • error_fetch
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_bit_start
  • post_thanks_function_show_thanks_date_start
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_bit_end
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_post_thanks_template_start
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_post_thanks_template_end
  • pagenav_page
  • pagenav_complete
  • tag_fetchbit_complete
  • forumrules
  • showthread_bookmarkbit
  • navbits
  • navbits_complete
  • showthread_complete