behavioral modification thoughts?

[mamaKristin]

My MIL is um..not quite totally gently pushing us to "get DS potty trained". I would love for it to happen, but I'm not totally sure about the methods she is encouraging us to use. Problem is, I can't quite articulate WHY I don't like them. Need some feedback.

To get my niece *trained*, MIL (and her daughter, my SIL) decided to push her by removing all her privileges for tv and taking all her toys away. She earned tv watching and toy use by going in the toilet. When she had an accident, one was a *freebie*, but after that she had to return a privilege. Also, she used food reward for my nephew and is wanting to do that with DS. This all *smells bad* to me, but I can't quite put words to why I don't like it. My SIL (mom of the niece and nephew in question) works in a preschool with both regular and special needs kids and apparently uses "all sorts of behavioral modification methods" with the kids. Really, though, is this the best way to go? I know that in essence, lots of what we do is behav mod, but do these methods sound adverserial to anyone else?

[CelticJourney]

Well, from my perspective it's like taking away a baby's teething rings because he can't chew his food yet, but someone decided it was time for solids. Their methods sound not only mean, but unnecessary. I have two children and don't recall ever needing to do something like that with them.

I'm interested in what ages we are talking about. The little boy I keep a couple of days a week is just getting good at 'staying dry' (he will be three in March) AND I thought they were starting a little early when they did start, but they were strickly positive about it, so no harm in trying.

[mwwr]

Is ds *ready* to be trained? Just because he is a certain age doesn't mean he is truly ready, no matter what all the other kids are doing. And when they are *really* ready, it shouldn't take more than a couple of weeks to get the hang of it, for most kids. Potty training is pushed so much as a sign of intelligence or something, but it is no more an indicator of a kid's succes in life than the age they learn to walk! I don't like the sound of the methods. Would you punish a kid for not being able to walk?

[milkmommy]

Okay let me tell you my story I was born with an under developed bladder so not only was training difficult but I suffered from tons of serious bladder infections one that lead to surgury and another that nearly killed me. Sadly though it was still the years that wetting past a certain age was considered a behavioral issue and the fact my parts (for the most part) had "successfully" day time trained me early (18 months) the fact I had night accidents or naptime ect was something they refused to accept. So they took away toys privledges they scolded they spanked they with held liquids and foods they tried home remidies (honey and others) they tried medicine and NONE of it worked if anything it got worse. The only thing it acomplished was I was terrified of waking up wet I'd not sleep in my bed or sleep at all wheen things got bad and I was sure I was the only one with this problem. It was sooo frustrating because I couldn't do a darn thing about it. They minus well beat me because I kept waking up with blue eyes or something and even they I could of gotten contacts with this nothing.. I was well into my JR high years and still had issues, they did eventually back off but still thought it was my choice my stubborness. (yea a 12 year old wants to be doing that ) Then my 8th grade year it suddenly stopped I woke up dry again and again nothing changed except I was growing and my body finially caught up with itself. No majic tonics no threats or rewards. For over a decade I endured every method avaiable and then some, when my body was ready it stopped not one second sooner.
As for my own DD shes 3 (37 months) were just NOW starting to gently take the steps. WHy do I feel shes "ready" (and didn't just a month ago) she stays dry for a few hours at a time just a month ago she was still wetting every 30 mintues she can name parts and tell us the "function" of those parts (in toddler lingo) she can manpulate her clothes and safely sit on the toliet shes not scared to try. So far I've just been taking her to the potty tons and changing a lot of trainers I've still not caught a pee but I have a feeling when we do she'll see the connection if not then well just keep going no biggie.

Deanna

You know, I find that people of the past generations were in a real hurry to potty train. I think it goes back to the days before quality disposables & cloth diapers, and back before nice modern washing machines. Potty training was more about mom's convenience and getting out of a dreaded chore. And of course moms played the comparison game.

If something seems wrong to you about this potty training system, trust your mommy instincts. And try in a diplomatic way to make more of a boundary with extended family when it comes to your parenting decisions. I highly suggest that you read the bean dip thread in Gentle Parenting for a great way to do this!



A personal story along these lines... my oldest dd was about 4 at the time, and was peeing in the potty like a charm. But for #2, she still wanted her trusty diaper. I was ok with that. I went out of town for a couple days due to a family emergency, and my MIL came to help out my husband. When I returned she told me that she had wanted to go out and get some supositories, and that using them and making dd sit on the potty would work like a charm. She had meant to do it while I was gone, as a "surprise" to me when I got home. I was in shock! I was so glad that she did not go through with her plan! I could hardly imagine something less respectful to a child... oh I get mad just thinking about it!

[Bonnie]

In a nutshell: I have real concerns wiith turning a natural bodily function into a reward/punishment issue. It's one thing to show enthusiasm for progress, even with "rewards" but to take away privileges over something that there's even a little chance the child isn't ready to do? Um, no. And if you make that much of a big production out of it, you could find yourself in a big ol' power struggle for no good reason.

[ChristmasGirl]

what is it with MIL's wanting their grandchildren to be potty-trained At the church nursery, i've occasionally gotten comments from grandma's "i think he's ready, but my daughter doesn't" types of comments.

As far as the methods she's suggesting, i think part of it is that it's not a natural consequence to with-hold those things. they aren't even related to the potty training. IMHO, it's a punishment so if you don't use that type of punishment in every day life then it wouldn't be the way to go for you or ds. I think that something along the lines of "if they have an accident have them learn to clean it up/change and do practice runs to try to make it in time" is a lot more of a natural/logical type of approach. HTH!

[hsgbdmama]

It doesn't always work -- and it can become a power struggle (and it can actually end up taking longer to pt the kid ).

Here is what we did with ds1, FWIW. We talked about it quite a bit, and had some false starts, but he just was not ready physically. We pulled back, but continued to talk about it ("when you are pt, you won't have to wear diapers anymore and can wear big boy underpants" "when you are pt, then you can go to Sunday School" "when you are pt, you can _________") -- nothing shaming or punative, just encouraging and put in the perspective of what he can look forward to. We also used the pt video from Duke University, which ds1 enjoyed a lot, as well as checked out some pt books from the library.

When he was about 3.5, everything just fell into place (had dry diapers after naps, started staying dry at night), and he was completely out of diapers within 3 weeks of our seriously starting pt. We did use pull-ups for outings for a couple of months -- just for everyone's peace of mind and sanity, but no big deal.

The keys are seeing the physical readiness, consistency and encouragement.

[mamaKristin]

Just to clarify, I don't feel like I need to listen to my MIL and push DS. Much as I would love for him to be using the toilet, I don't think he's ready...and he is just past 3.5 and I have 3 in diapers. He just isn't fully ready yet - I get that and much as I would love for that NOT to be the case, I respect it. What I am really asking about is people's feedback on why using these methods don't work. For the most part, I just let MIL spout her piece and file it under "garbage that I don't need to know" (trust me, I'm really good at politely ignoring her advice, DH and I even sometimes ask her for advice just so we can ignore it) On the other hand, it drives me nuts that even though DS has a mild speech delay, which will sometimes be reflected in delays in other areas, she doesn't see that possibility - even though she totally understands his speech issues.

What I am feeling about her *great ideas*, is that they seem to be using things that are completely unrelated to the task at hand. Much like the PP's thought of punishing a kid for not being able to walk. I guess I'm struggling to see a connection between getting to play with toys and peeing...because there isn't one! Do others see this as punishment - because I think I do.

[milkmommy]

What I am feeling about her *great ideas*, is that they seem to be using things that are completely unrelated to the task at hand. Much like the PP's thought of punishing a kid for not being able to walk. I guess I'm struggling to see a connection between getting to play with toys and peeing...because there isn't one! Do others see this as punishment - because I think I do.

I'm not sure if I even see it as punishment Punishment is a negitive stimulation of some degree made to change behavior the person remembers the negitivity and avoids doing what will cause it. Like a childs favourite doll is taken when they hit ther brother so to avoid gettig the doll taken they don't hit. Its a tempory 'solution' and doesn't teach. However there is still some degree of understanding. Taking away stuff for a child that isn't ready to PT yet is like taking a toy from a child who can't walk. Its not going to make them walk any faster even if they "want to" its not going to happen because they are punishing. This goes beyone inaapropiate use of conquences or punishments its just cruel.

Deanna

[mamaKristin]

Cruel! That's what I'm looking for. Thanks. I feel it seems cruel to do that. My DS is plenty smart, and *get* the idea, but isn't ready yet...so therefore it would be cruel of me to strip the house of toys so he will learn on my schedule, instead of his own.

For the record, much as MIL is pushing this, she keeps telling me don't start it until after Christmas because there is so much going on. Not sure if I think that makes more or less sense...since this last 15 months have been FULL of major transitions in our family....

[Can Dance]

Just wanted to give you a , for crazy MIL problems. I think you handle them beautifully.

[mwwr]

Perhaps MIL could give you (or wash for you) diapers for Christmas . Really, taking away a favorite toy could be appropriate...if ds's potty is a favorite toy!