Talk to me about Vision Forum

[momma2girls]

Okay so I have heard talk of Vision Forum lately and was wondering if someone could tell me about it. What they believe? Are they icky? Are they good? Are they both? I want to be informed so I know at least some to carry on a conversation.

[forty-two]

They are patriarchal Calvinists (though many Calvinists disavow their brand of belief - they're kinda fringy and proud of it). They also have this big thing about the dominion mandate in Genesis - go forth and fill and subdue the earth (iirc) - that seems very central. They talk about it a lot anyhow, but tbh I don't get why its so important to them . I think they are Quiverfull, too.

Anyway, it's their partriarchal stance that draws the most fire. Completely messed up theologically, imnsho , though some of them make it sound really appealing (the Botkin sisters, in particular). But mostly reality doesn't live up to the hype, partly b/c the dynamic itself is practically tailormade for screwing people up, even if they were doing well to start with. Power corrupts, you know, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And their setup gives men absolute control over their families - even well-meaning men get messed up by that, let alone already controlling ones . Only by the grace of God can people not be ruined by that kind of power - and the VF idiots raise it up as the *ideal* .

(No, I don't have big feelings about this - why do you ask? )

---------- Post added at 03:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------

Their version of patriarchy is wishy-washy wrt gender roles. One the one hand, they are all strict about a "traditional" division - women home, men outside home - but they also have this big helpmeet thing for women going on, which basically means they do whatever their dad/hubby needs them to do to help them be successful. This is where they emphasize the important of a top-notch (home) education for all (some form of classical, usually) - b/c an educated woman can be a better mother and helpmeet (no argument there). And it's where several of the leading daughters/wives in the movement have done some pretty adventurous things and learned some "manly" skills, and overall act like strong women - in service of their dad/dh. This is the vision the Botkin sisters in particular are selling - be strong for your family, not outsiders - and it is *compelling* .

But mostly it seems to be a reality only in the top families (and maybe not even then) - b/c if your dad/dh doesn't need/want you to be a strong woman, well, sucks to be you, I guess. Be happy with your God-given-through-your-dad/dh-role, however it underutilizes you

[BarefootBetsy]

Icky. Most definitely icky! Very patriarchal. Very separate roles for men and women (not bad if people choose it, IMO, but they say it's the only Biblical way).

Geoffrey Botkin is one of their main people now and he's big into multigenerational faithfulness - he made a 200 year plan with all his children's lives plotted out and his grandchildren's lives plotted out. Apparently his children's lives are supposed to revolve around helping HIM (their father) achieve his "vision." That's what they teach other men that they're supposed to do also... the children simply exist to serve their earthly father and his goals. It's called patriocentricity. Google it. Fascinating things come up when you do!

Botkin was also part of the Great Commission cult a couple decades ago... I wouldn't trust a word that came out of the man's mouth.

His daughters are big in the "stay at home daughter" movement which is creepy to say the least (you don't want me to get into it... I have HUGE feelings about this whole thing...). They believe that it's sinful (or at least unwise) for daughters to go away to college. Daughters should live at home as their father's "help-meet in training" until they get married after courting after their father approves of the man.

Most of these things are not WRONG, per se, but they've elevated these things to doctrine and salvation issues. Vision Forum looks innocent enough on the surface... but beneath that surface... there's a lot of very distasteful stuff.

---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:29 PM ----------

They are also extremely punitive

[Hermana Linda]

Here is what I have about them on my blog.

[jenny_islander]

One of my major disagreements with the Vision Forum and related groups is their use of the word "defraud." To defraud someone is to deceive that person in order to take something away. However, VF and related literature says that a woman or girl who exposes or emphasizes certain parts of her body is defrauding men or boys who see her. The implication is that she is deceiving them because her body is an automatic promise of sex and the thing she is taking away is the sex they have a right to expect from a woman or girl who straddles a fence/hitches up her skirt/grows breasts that make her blouses tight over the summer/whatever. Of course, if she agreed that she had inadvertently promised sex by straddling the fence and went on to give them what they thought they had the right to expect, she would be a fornicating harlot or whatever.

Basically, if you're female, you can never be as pure or holy as a man, because you have a woman's body. And men have the right to use you as they see fit.

[BarefootBetsy]

The "defrauding" and extreme modesty aspects are also pretty demeaning to men, IMO. Those poor little men who can't control their animal natures need us women to cover nearly every square inch of our bodies in order to stop them from sinning.

There's no responsibility for men to keep themselves from sinning by, oh, I don't know, turning their heads AWAY from the temptation. There's no accountability for men either. All that responsibility for the men's lust is given to the women and girls.

Not to say that modesty isn't a positive thing... but not when it's used to absolve an entire gender of the responsibility for their own sin and instead places the responsibility for that sin on the other gender.

[CelticJourney]

There is one history DVD that I desperately want but I haven't been able to convince myself that it would be acceptable to pay VF to get it.

If you want a vivid picture of how extremely icky they are, check out the way Father Botkin's daughter describes herself and keep in mind this is what they believe to be the ultimate in service to their Father and god. (Yup, I reversed the capitalization on purpose...)

Elizabeth Botkin has the privilege of assisting Geoffrey Botkin in his lifework. She finds her identity among her beloved father, her wonderful mother, Victoria, her sister and her five brothers, and finds her stimulation and adventure in helping them on reformation projects affecting family, church, and state. Through the grace of God, she has been learning over the years how to submit her will to her father and channel her interests into avenues that further his vision. She and her sister serve their father through their interests in filmmaking, orchestral harp, history, music theory and composition, theology, studying speech and deportment, the reconstruction of the West, hospitality, classical piano, the persecuted church, and homemaking. A perfect case study of a born rebel turned devoted daughter, she learns more each year about the practical side of helping a father become a great man.
http://www. visionforumministries(DOT)org/events/fdr/009/speakers.aspx

NO one should ever be that enmeshed and dependent and sickeningly worshipping another person. And this is what they believe is God's will for all young women.

[Mama2MeadowRose]

As an interesting side note question, do you think its this type of patriocentric thinking that causes many generation-upon-generation families of preachers?

[CelticJourney]

What I don't understand is how on earth this dynamic is supposed to work unless the father is self-employed. My father was a SOLDIER. My daughters' father is a FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER. Neither man wanted(s) his daughters anywhere near what they do/did for a living.

[Mama2MeadowRose]

Yeah good point. Honestly, when it comes to ministry it is tempting to push our kids to be involved in the same thing. Kind of as a way to leave a lasting legacy in the kingdom of God. But God sometimes has other plans for our children and fathers should not assume that God has the exact same ministry/calling/vocation for his children that He had for his life.

[NewLeaf]

Originally Posted by rachelserine

If you want a vivid picture of how extremely icky they are, check out the way Father Botkin's daughter describes herself and keep in mind this is what they believe to be the ultimate in service to their Father and god. (Yup, I reversed the capitalization on purpose...)

Elizabeth Botkin has the privilege of assisting Geoffrey Botkin in his lifework. She finds her identity among her beloved father, her wonderful mother, Victoria, her sister and her five brothers, and finds her stimulation and adventure in helping them on reformation projects affecting family, church, and state. Through the grace of God, she has been learning over the years how to submit her will to her father and channel her interests into avenues that further his vision. She and her sister serve their father through their interests in filmmaking, orchestral harp, history, music theory and composition, theology, studying speech and deportment, the reconstruction of the West, hospitality, classical piano, the persecuted church, and homemaking. A perfect case study of a born rebel turned devoted daughter, she learns more each year about the practical side of helping a father become a great man.
http://www. visionforumministries(DOT)org/events/fdr/009/speakers.aspx

NO one should ever be that enmeshed and dependent and sickeningly worshipping another person. And this is what they believe is God's will for all young women.

[forty-two]

Originally Posted by Mama2MeadowRose

As an interesting side note question, do you think its this type of patriocentric thinking that causes many generation-upon-generation families of preachers?

Not necessarily. I think it is pretty common for children of parents who love or are otherwise enthusiastic about what they do to follow in their parents' footsteps . Just as there are preacher families, there are military families, and science families, and medical families, etc. I mean, we often develop interests from being exposed to the interests of those we are close to - makes sense for our choice of job to be affected by what we see, too.

---------- Post added at 01:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 PM ----------

Originally Posted by elcollins

What I don't understand is how on earth this dynamic is supposed to work unless the father is self-employed. My father was a SOLDIER. My daughters' father is a FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER. Neither man wanted(s) his daughters anywhere near what they do/did for a living.

I think their ideal *is* that all fathers are self-employed .

[jenny_islander]

I have two sets of nieces. The father of one set (my brother) does something too highly classified to discuss at the submarine yards on Puget Sound. The father of the other set (my BIL) recently retired from 30 years in the Coast Guard. What were their daughters supposed to do in order to help them become great? They couldn't even visit their fathers' offices without a pass, much less touch any piece of paper in said offices. Were they supposed to, I don't know, press their uniforms? There are professionals who are much better at that.

And I suspect that "great man" is code for "I want to see uplifted adoring eyes whenever I look around, but the outside world doesn't seem to take me seriously enough. Look, babies! I can indoctrinate them to adore me from birth!"

Also, what are these poor women supposed to do when their fathers die? Shrivel up and blow away?

ETA: At its core, this is an elaborate lifestyle fantasy about self-sufficient manly men leading a little colony of adoring followers to God in an unmistakably manly way. That's why it's unsustainable outside a tiny minority. If all of the men run their own small businesses (with a lot of unpaid help from their women) and all of the women stay at home, nobody is fixing the roads, operating the hospitals, running the factories, etc., etc., and the country falls apart. But in this fantasy world, sewing machines never need parts that can't be made in the garage and bridges fix themselves.

[BarefootBetsy]

Originally Posted by jenny_islander

Also, what are these poor women supposed to do when their fathers die? Shrivel up and blow away?

Well, theoretically they should be married by then, but if not, I would imagine the torch of patriarchy would be passed down to one of their brothers and they would then have to help HIM with HIS vision

Women, according this mindset, don't have visions... they're supposed to sit at home, keep house, take care of the children, and look pretty while helping the menfolk with their amazing ideas and astounding visions!