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Unprepared for Parenting (Ezzos, Pearls, Etc.) *Public* Support and information for those affected by the Ezzos, the Pearls, and other punitive and adversarial methods of child-rearing.
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23. No posts harshly dissecting parenting moments of others since we desire to humbly cultivate a heart attitude of grace and not judgment towards other mamas. We all struggle at times as parents and have much to learn, and GCM's focus is to provide tools and information for each of us to parent more effectively. Posts voicing some frustration regarding choices made by others can be okay, but it needs to be within the overall context of seeking understanding or ideas for better responses in the future.

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Old 09-28-2006, 09:29 AM   #31
ServantofGod
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Default Re: Somethings' bothering me

Too many things here to comment to each one, but just a few things that I have a minute to speak to:

One, with Fear of Bees, first, he talked about all the ways you would show/educate/teach the child that bees are not horrible and terrifying. Plus, the child had not even been STUNG by a bee; some "flew by her head", so I think Pearl's assessment that *someone* conditioned her to think a few bees flying by is terrifying was right on the money. The teaching/showing/educating about bees was to recondition that bees were not terrifying. After that, yes - I do think a child can use the Terrified of Bees excuse to have the parents dancing to her tune. I wouldn't necessarily put her to bed in the laundry room, cause I think that's too weird, but I do think a child can use something like this to control the parents her way.

Is the idea of "assigning a positive intent" supposed to mean that the child never has a negative intent???

Let me tell you about something that recently happened. I didn't want to post this before, but I think I need to to ask the question. I was teaching a class of 3 and 4 year olds. One girl was fine and happy, but being a constant disruption by fiddling with her cousin. I told her several times she needed to put her hands on her lap, etc. Eventually, I told her she needed to move one seat over. She didn't move, so I sckooched her over. She dissolved in tears and screamed, "I want my mommy!" for the next 40 minutes. Many attempts were made by me and others to help her relax and join in the class, but she would only kick and lash out. No one could find her mother. She couldn't be moved on at the end of class, either. Finally, someone found her brother, who came and got her. When her brother appeared and put his arm around her, she instantly stopped crying and was triumphant in her face. Separately I was told by two other ladies that this is was her MO in every class LAST YEAR. She is fine until she is corrected or any limit is placed on her. Her class info card says that she is "sensitive to sugar", so I gather that her mother has heard of food issues and has aimed to find out what food(s) trouble her. Yet her behavior is still terrible.

I believe the girl has an intention, but it's not positive. I believe her intention is to have things go along as she would like. If anyone alters her plans, she will scream for her mother, who rescues her from the bad limit-setting people. Mind you, in this whole scenario, no outrageous demands were placed on her. Thirteen other children are able to sit in a circle and, if their attention goes astray for a minute or two, they can be brought back to joining in the activities by a simple request of, "Jordan, we're sitting down right now." or "You will be able to hold the stuffed animal in a few minutes, but right now, we're all looking at it with our eyes." Thirteen other children have learned that there is no need to (or benefit it) collapsing into tears when someone reminds you what the limits are. Talk about fear - yes, I do fear my now-two-year-old becoming a four-year-old like that. If I can prevent it, I intend to.

About fear of not getting control of the behavior now - this is a rational concern for a parent to have. It's one I feel keenly. Because children do not grow up to be wonderful adults just because you love them and talk to them kindly. The jails are full of people whose mothers love them. If your child has outrageous behavior when they are two, how can a parent not be concerned that they will also have outrageous behavior when they are three? Or four? Etc. I've seen GBD people excusing the outrageous behavior of a ten-year-old! At what point do you say, the child has troubling behavior at ten; things don't look good for his future? See I don't want to wait until Mason is a terrible 10 year old and then say, "Sadly, I was right when he was two. I accommodated him when he was two because 'he's a sensitive child', 'he has food issues and yesterday he ate a tiny peice of cheese', 'he is still young yet'." Why is it every other child now has a food sensitivity or autism spectrum disorder? Why is it every other baby has reflux? Mason was a screamy, spit-up-ish baby and every other mother told me, "He probably has reflux; you should put him on Zantac." When my first child was born and was screamy, nobody at all said, "she has reflux"; I never even heard the word until a few years ago.

Also, I know Pearl was not saying it isn't necessary to spank, but only, if you legally can't, you can still train. Of course this is what he would say, because this is what he believes via the Bible! My point was that it isn't the spanking that teaches the child and HE DOES SAY THIS, though he believes the spanking is Biblically mandated if the child is yours and it's legal to spank him.

Maybe more later.
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Old 09-28-2006, 09:40 AM   #32
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Default Re: Somethings' bothering me

Quote:
Originally Posted by katiekind
--or on the other hand, normal parents will be love-and-compassion failures and who are unable to honestly FEEL Pearl's folksy level of "shucks, ain't he a cutie-pie, though" goodwill and compassion toward their children when they are requiring so many stinging licks and bizarre punishments to change their children's will and emotions. You find them lamenting this to one another.
IMHO, this is the root of my horror of the Pearl's teachings, that they change their children's will and emotions. Also the Stockholm Syndrome. I was not totally sure what that means, but I assumed that it is the brainwashing captors use on their victims. The syndrom that made Patty Hearst join the SLA. Turns out that I was right. I found an interesting article on that http://www.apologeticsindex.org/353-stockholm-syndrome. The Pearl's adult children defend and embrace the teachings by which they were raised. I read an article by Rebeka Joy Anast of them gushing about how wonderful it was that she can only feel joy. All negative emotions have been brainwashed out of her during her youth. This is not healthy. I have searched for the article but am unable to find it. If anyone has a link to it, please post.
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Old 09-28-2006, 09:51 AM   #33
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Default Re: Somethings' bothering me

I had a few thoughts.

The first thought I had was that there is no understanding of normal childhood development in the teachings of the Pearls. I find this disturbing that we would expect a 10-month-old to act the same as a 3-year-old or a 8-year-old. Expecting all 3/4 year olds to be mature enough to be able to handle a separation from mom is not a fair expectation of all children. To naturally assume a child must be spoiled or indulged is not necessarily fair either.

Also, the herd mentality. The idea that all the little ones must align "just so" or something evil is going on. Again, everything based on the external display. Now, I know we as human are limited by the external--what we can see as only God can see the heart. However, our goal with our children should be the heart--you reach the heart (via the Holy Spirit) there will be an external change (though it doesn't guarantee perfect children who only display perfect little emotions).

I also think you are confusing permissiveness with GBD. Even secular psychology recognizes that permissive parenting is just as dangerous as heavy authoritative parenting.

For so many people, not spanking must equal permissive---of course that is a myth. A mother could actually be permissive and spank---spanking when she hits her limit and than compensating her guilt with indulgence.

Quote:
The teaching/showing/educating about bees was to recondition that bees were not terrifying.
This is secular behaviorism ala the likes of Pavlov or Watson.

Quote:
Also, I know Pearl was not saying it isn't necessary to spank, but only, if you legally can't, you can still train.
Well, I prefer teach (train is what I do with my dog or birds)--but still, if it is true that it can be done without spanking--then why not? Now I know he reads Scripture differently, but I have to say that as a foster parent of a 3 and an 11 year old---if all I knew was the Pearl method (which I do understand by reading their materials and actually you will find on GCM that I rarely discuss the Pearls here)--I could never ever foster.

Why could I never ever foster? Because my tools and abilities would be narrowly limited. The best I could hope for would be to maybe be very permissive with the foster kids and extremely authoritative with my own kids---which would mean that I would have 2 methods of discipline in my home causing division and ill feelings between the children in my care.

The key to everything is the Gospel--and that is the biggest issue I have with the Pearls. When I read their writings I rarely hear anything about Jesus. We cannot save our children though bevhavioralism or spanking or sheer human will. Our children are saved through faith in Christ (via the Holy Spirit)---if I fail to share that with them, then I have truly failed as a parent. It's the internal one needs to start with not the external. You get the internal, you will get the external---however, you will never eradicate the struggle of sin in anyone's life--no amount of "training" will produce a perfect child.

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Old 09-28-2006, 09:55 AM   #34
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Default Re: Somethings' bothering me

Regarding becoming vulnerable to extreme advice on account of fear:

Quote:
Because children do not grow up to be wonderful adults just because you love them and talk to them kindly.
Hmmm. If that's what you heard me say, then I need to try again, because that is definitely not what I meant or intended, and definitely not what I believe.
Quote:
I know the secret is the relationship and the willingness to walk beside your child every step of the way. Never, ever giving up. You don't have to be harsh and you don't have to punish them, but you DO need to guide them, help them, set boundaries and limits and be consistent. You have to be their first and best resource person. It's tiring. I would say, don't give ground to your fears. You have lots of time and God does His best work with sinners.
Danielle, you're going to have to work through your issues with your son as God leads you, of course. I know you're afraid and you want to help him grow up to be a fine young man.

I would avoid Pearl because of his problems, but there are many other fine sources of good information on parenting that you might want to check out for additional support and ideas. What I find when I talk to older, experienced parents is that the differences between punitive and grace based parents are quite minimal if you really sit them down to talk about heart-level issues. There is a pool of common wisdom that is shared. Maybe you need to go looking for that.

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Old 09-28-2006, 09:56 AM   #35
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Default Re: Somethings' bothering me

Quote:
Because children do not grow up to be wonderful adults just because you love them and talk to them kindly. The jails are full of people whose mothers love them.
I think most people would agree with this. I think to raise wonderful adults, you have to love them and treat them kindly while respectfully setting boundaires and limits and enforcing them. I believe that GD encourages focus on the relationship you have with your children, but also encourages the setting of firm boundaries and consistently enforcing them. It's not an either/or situation.
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Old 09-28-2006, 09:56 AM   #36
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Default Re: Somethings' bothering me

Quote:
Why is it every other child now has a food sensitivity or autism spectrum disorder? Why is it every other baby has reflux? Mason was a screamy, spit-up-ish baby and every other mother told me, "He probably has reflux; you should put him on Zantac." When my first child was born and was screamy, nobody at all said, "she has reflux"; I never even heard the word until a few years ago.
What is your point. Reflux Autism etc are VERY real are you suggesting mammas here are using these things as excuses?? . I'll use my DD as an example.
We starte the PT process around age 2.5 we did everything by the book did rewards even took awy privleges because we were told it was up to us to make it happen. Yet nothing. We finially had to ask is there something medically wrong and had her tested and YES their is! Her brain does noot make the connection bran scans DON"T lie . Yet I still get people who tell me she should just be spanked or punished becaue shes manuplating me According to her nurlogist many many kids with this disorder end up abused because parents assume there just stubborn and assume its a power stuggle they must win.
Another issue food for the looongest time we had serious food issues a DD who eaither refused to eat to the point of starvation and vomiting up what she did take in. We tried everything from permissive to gracefull to punitive I'll admit didn't work. We finially got a dianoisis of her apraxia then we were able to get her the proper help an things have greatly improved.
All her diagnoises are real they are not excuses. We teach her to be the best she can be our standards are very high but we still have to face reality. I expect my DD not to say toss her food or go Ewww thats gross. She expected to sit with us and have appropiate manners. I expect her to coperate while I change her diaper and to help me know if shes wet/messy.
Do you think for example my child would magically not have these issues if we punished?

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Old 09-28-2006, 09:58 AM   #37
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Default Re: Somethings' bothering me

Quote:
Because children do not grow up to be wonderful adults just because you love them and talk to them kindly. The jails are full of people whose mothers love them.
sastically this isn't true not saying there are none but studies have found far more who come from punitive backgrounds or very permissive ones.

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Old 09-28-2006, 10:01 AM   #38
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Default Re: Somethings' bothering me

Quote:
Originally Posted by BFandHS
I read an article by Rebeka Joy Anast of them gushing about how wonderful it was that she can only feel joy. All negative emotions have been brainwashed out of her during her youth. This is not healthy. I have searched for the article but am unable to find it. If anyone has a link to it, please post.
I think it was this one http:// www.nogreaterjoy. org/
index.php?id=52&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=125&tx_ttne ws%5BbackPid%5D=24&cHash=c6560ac911d

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Old 09-28-2006, 10:08 AM   #39
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Default Re: Somethings' bothering me

Quote:
Originally Posted by ServantofGod
If your child has outrageous behavior when they are two, how can a parent not be concerned that they will also have outrageous behavior when they are three? Or four? Etc.
It's reasonable to be concerned, and to assist children. But it's also reasonable to understand that some outrageous behavior is normal for 2-year olds. Not acceptable, but normal. It's also reasonable to understand that some behavior that would be outrageous in a 4-year old is acceptable in a 2-year old. My 2-year old gets a retry when she forgets to say please and thank-you, and most of the time when she whines. As long as she's trying to eat with utensils, I accept table manners that would be unacceptable in somebody with more motor skills.

I don't let my 2-year old pull my hair. But I don't worry that it's a strategy she's still going to be trying when she's 5, either.

I don't think wanting your own way is necessarily negative intent, either. And I think that a normal child in a functioning family, regardless of its parenting style, doesn't choose to be hysterical for 40 minutes (this is not a pleasant experience -- this is, in fact, much less pleasant for your average child than going along with what you want). There are non-normal children and non-functioning families in every parenting style.
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Old 09-28-2006, 10:34 AM   #40
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Default Re: Somethings' bothering me

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so I think Pearl's assessment that *someone* conditioned her to think a few bees flying by is terrifying was right on the money.
I'm sorry. But that is not a valid observation. . .it is an opinion. I am deathly afraid of heights. . .and I know, full well, that no one conditioned me to be afraid of heights. You are basing your opinions on conjecture. You are assigning total negative intent to a small child, and total positive intent to Pearl. Why not try to assign positive intent to both?

Let me give you an example from my own past. I have a 23 yo son. When he was younger, and in school, we had no end of problems with him. There was one elementary class that I remember vividly. He was the only student (due to his ADHD and other issues, he was in 'special' classes). Twice, the police were called, because he ran away. I was called many, many times to come pick him up from class, because he was so unmanageable. And I remember thinking the same thing. . . ."How in the world are we going to teach him anything, if he always gets his way when he gets violent!?". Because, I would see his whole body relax, and I would see this 'look' on his face when he "got his way". He wanted out of that class. He needed out of that class. I see things a bit differently now. He was too young to control himself. He just couldn't. All he knew was that he was panicked. And the psychiatrist we were seeing was a bit condescending when he said, "You will never understand what he's going through." and got really miffed when I said, "Yes, I do, he's having what equates to a panic attack." His heart rate would go through the roof, his blood pressure, etc. And I am pleased to announce that he is now old enough to control these physiological nightmares. And, yes, I spanked him. I would get him home and I would spank him (well, I loved him, how could I not? ) and isolate him in his room. And you know what? It only made the behaviour much worse.

And I have a question. . .. do you really think a spanking would have solved that little girl's problems? Or would it have solved the teacher's and the school's and the parent's problems? *What* is the reason for this behaviour?! In our case, we found out later what my son's problems were. He had to start having seizures before we would dig deeper. And, I even started to think that he was having grand mal seizures on purpose! That is where the adversarial mindset will take you.

. I just re-read some of your post! She is in the 3 and 4 yo class?!?!?!? I teach a 3 and 4 yo class myself. These are *babies*! Of course she has that look on her face! She *needs* a comfort figure, which she is obviously not getting in the class! It's not triumph! It's relief!!! I've seen the same scenario, many, many times! She was "bothering" her cousin because it was giving her comfort somehow! And she needs to be taught how to get comfort another way, not have it jerked away, and then ultimately, she has to try and do what she knows will get her the comfort! And, comparing her to the other children isn't going to help! Yes, other children may have bent to the will of the relevant authority figure and can mimic the correct behaviour, but that does not mean that *she* can!!!

Quote:
I've seen GBD people excusing the outrageous behavior of a ten-year-old!
GBD or permissive? Is this a child that has been dx'd with disablity? Is it the same outrageous behaviour that he had when he was 2? Or, has it changed? For instance, a bi-polar child will behave much differently from a 'normal' child. And it may not be an excuse. . .it can just be an explanation. There were many times it looked like I was either abusing my child or otherwise 'excusing' his behaviour. Another example. . . we were somewhere where we had to cross a busy 4-lane street. So, we needed to go to the crosswalk and wait for the light. My child (probably 8 to 10) started to cross the street. I held him back, and he melted down (it was part of his disability, even though I didn't know it at the time, before the EEG and other tests). I had to hold him in a bear hug until he calmed. For all the world it looked like I was abusing him. But, I had to, to keep him from running out into the traffic! He was screaming and crying and fighting. And I did feel it necessary to tell the folks looking on why he was doing what he was doing. . .. otherwise, I'm sure someone would have called CPS!!

Quote:
Also, I know Pearl was not saying it isn't necessary to spank, but only, if you legally can't, you can still train.
My question stands. Then why spank, if 'training' will still work? And there are many times and places you cannot legally spank. . . and he gives suggestions in how to hide it and 'perform' it in hiding.

I apologize for sounding upset. But. . . .. I am. I totally ruined one child with these adversarial methods and I am reaping the consequences with my other 3 right now of having used these 'methods' when they were young.

And I'd like to throw this out here, too. If MP has done such an indepth Bible study, then he should have found out this, as well.

Quote:
Proverbs has a verse that reads: Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

That is the reading in the English translation. In the ancient Hebrew it reads, literally: “You are to reveal the activity of life that is allowed, surrounding what destroys the household, and take authority over the activities of desire by consuming the activity of life with communication, and not allow desire to set the path.”

nakah shebet natsal nephesh sh@'owl

You read Hebrew from right to left so the last symbol is actually the first and you go up the list.

nakah is made up of the Hebrew symbols:
noon: activity, life
kaf: to cover, to open, allow
hey: 'the', to reveal

So --- To reveal the allowed activity

shebet is made up of these Hebrew symbols:
sheen: to consume, to destroy
bet: household, in, into, family
tet: to surround

So ----- surround the household from what destroys

natsal (Hebrew symbols):
noon: activity, life
tsadik: catch, desire, need
lamed: control, authority, tongue

So ----- speak authority over the desires of activity

nephesh =
noon: activity, life
pey: to speak, avoid, to open
sheen: to consume, to destroy

So ---- to consume with communication the activity of life

sh@'owl =
sheen: to consume, to destroy
alef: strong, leader, first
reysh: a person, the head, the highest
lamed: control, authority, the tongue

So -------- what controls the person and leads to destruction

Now, putting it all together:

”Reveal the allowed activity and surround the household from what destroys speaking authority over the desires of activity and consuming with communication the activity of life to avoid what controls the person and leads to destruction.”
This is one of the verses that he says backs up the Biblical mandate to spank.
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Old 09-28-2006, 10:41 AM   #41
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Default Re: Somethings' bothering me

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I apologize for sounding upset. But. . . .. I am. I totally ruined one child with these adversarial methods and I am reaping the consequences with my other 3 right now of having used these 'methods' when they were young.
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Old 09-28-2006, 10:52 AM   #42
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Default Re: Somethings' bothering me

Quote:
Originally Posted by DixieKitten
Yes, we are all human and it does no good to demonize a specific person. And I think it is very true that it is easier to blame some parenting guru for a bad relationship, than the people in the relationship themselves
Agreed. Just like on the same token, I don't think it's fair to blame the Pearls (or anyone) when you beat your kids to death. Although I'm sure the materials parents read influence them, but people need to own up to their own mistakes, and not try to blame someone else.

On that note.... As someone who was diligently trying to follow the Pearls: Without getting into some big long diatribe lol... I just want to say, Yes, he does say to love your kids (tying heart strings) and yes he does emphasize the importance of having their heart, having a bond, attached relationships, etc. This is all very good, and I also know they advocate breastfeeding too. Very nice.

*But* --in *practice* there is no way that their methods actually encourage all of the things that they write down in their books, that I just wrote above. It just doesn't happen. I mean, look at me example....here I am dealing with all of these emotions that are coming out in my kids, one of my kids seems to be unsure about hugging/loving me (she loves to do it but seems to give me this "really? do you mean it? wierd/confused look, and so on) There is no flipping way that hosing down your kid for peeing on himself (either accident or intentional), or swatting a 4-5month old's thighs, or keeping a 1 y/o on your lap swatting him every time he dares to move, or pulling over repeatedly to spank your crying 2 y/o, etc......no way does that bring about the nurturing that they also suggest. I mean, 2+3 not equal 4, no matter how you may want it to, no matter how you may *claim* it does... it just doesn't!
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Old 09-28-2006, 10:59 AM   #43
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Default Re: Somethings' bothering me

Just a big to what Titus said... from another former Pearl follower.

More comments later, perhaps.
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Old 09-28-2006, 11:00 AM   #44
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Default Re: Somethings' bothering me

I totally agree with what you wrote.
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Old 09-28-2006, 11:07 AM   #45
Mother of Sons
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Default Re: Somethings' bothering me

I think you are being very offensive. I'm going to come back to some other things but in regards to this:

Quote:
Why is it every other baby has reflux? Mason was a screamy, spit-up-ish baby and every other mother told me, "He probably has reflux; you should put him on Zantac." When my first child was born and was screamy, nobody at all said, "she has reflux"; I never even heard the word until a few years ago.
Reflux is real, as are the other disorders you mentioned. Reflux damages and leaving a baby to scream and cry in pain when you could help them is wrong. Most babies outgrow reflux but at some cost if it's not treated (not all reflux needs to be treated) My dd already has damage and she IS being treated. Sure there are babies being treated when they don't need to be, that doesn't make it a made up diagnosis. Ask the babies who have had their vocal chords damaged and can't speak or who had to undergo surgery or as is the case of my dd, isn't growing because she associates food with pain. BTW, I used to think the same as you. Funny how that works.

There is no one here saying that behavior never needs to be addressed. Sometimes it's a disorder, sometimes it's food allergies. Sometimes it's just plain permissiveness. Permissiveness does exist and it doesn't work. GBD isn't permissive.

BTW, I also have a child who has Sensory integration. Another diagnosis you may feel is made up. You would have wanted to spank the snot out of him when he was two. Believe me, I wanted to. I got TONS of nasty looks. I even got people demanding I spank and telling me I was being permissive. Now he is 7 and VERY well behaved. I'd dare say you'd be impressed by him. Most people are. I didn't address every single infraction. I'm not the police. I'm not out to catch my kids in every little mistake. What I did do was get him appropriate therapy, remove dairy from his diet and I was patient (as much as possible) and let him grow. I did discipline him, but not harshly. They aren't adults yet, but he's not acting like he did when he was 2. I knew he wouldn't and I didn't have to hit him or break his spirit or do anything like the pearls suggest to make that happen.

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