Re: reaching our children's hearts

[Zooey]

I actually consider myself very good at discerning good from bad in Christian books, but mostly when it comes to theology and doctrine... I am working on the "parenting" part of books, though, because like you said, children are all different and not a one-size-fits-all. My DD is only 2 and Ive only been in the Gentle mindset for about a year now. I have a lot to learn.

It just seems that ALL of the "Christian" parenting books out there say the EXACT same thing, or something very close to it.... When they misbehave, take them to a private place, spank them, tell them why you spanked them, and then give them a hug. Do it every time you believe they directly rebel against you. And it really does seem most of these kids turn out ok

I saw a family at the library recently that I had not seen in years. If I didn't know how quick to hit that they were, way back when I knew them, I could easily think that their kids were OK. As it is, I found myslef wondering if those smiles were real or not. You know?

I totally understand what you're saying. I also feel kind of "weird" about pointing out every time Charlotte "sins"... It seems to me that doing so could encourage a person to believe that God only likes them when they are good and that they need to earn His love, kwim?

But so many of these "experts" seem to put the emphasis on the negative.....as if a child doesn't have a right o hear about how much God loves us.

And yes, the "sweet enough" thing really makes me sick. Ugh.

Yes, isn't that creepy?
It sounds like a recipe for "how to teach your child to put on a phony smile & a fake "happy" act in self-defense".

It seems to me that Tripp and others like him preach a "new" message as relates to parenting. Am I wrong? How did Christian parents, like, 500 years ago teach their children? Mostly by example and Bible teaching, I would assume?

That is actually a very good point!! There were a whole world of children brought up in Christian homes, long before there guys like Tripp were born.... And yet often, they seem determined to tell us that there is no way anyone can manage without them.......

[SweetCaroline]

thankyou katie for that blog post

[Maggirayne]

Originally Posted by Hilary316

And it really does seem most of these kids turn out ok (I dont even know anyone who GBD their kids, and all the children at the churches Ive been too are all awesome). So I guess that is my struggle...

Most people don't walk around with visible wounds from punitive upbringings. If you were hanging out with any one of us, you wouldn't see the struggles we have with our families, our parents, ourselves, our God. Appearances are not a basis for determing what is okay.

Originally Posted by Hilary316

I totally understand what you're saying. I also feel kind of "weird" about pointing out every time Charlotte "sins"... It seems to me that doing so could encourage a person to believe that God only likes them when they are good and that they need to earn His love, kwim?

Emphatically yes. I struggle with this, not just with my relationship with God, but with my husband.

Originally Posted by saturnfire16

In order to be responsible for sin, one must have knowledge that the action is a sin and the physical and emotional capability to stop themselves from doing that if they choose. A two year old.... just doesn't. As they get older, they will at times, but it's not our job to judge their hearts. In other words, my response is going to be the same whether my child "willfully disobeyed" or made a childish mistake, because no matter how strongly the evidence points one way or the other, I'm not God. I cannot accurately judge my child's heart and it's not productive to our relationship or their relationship with God for me to try.
So, either way my response is "this is what we DO do and this is why." When they understand what TO do, and are immersed in loving relationships and come to understand God's love through that, anything less that that love (sin) will not feel right to them.

This explains exactly how I feel about the whole spanking defience, direct disobedience etc etc.

Originally Posted by firefighterwife

And THIS (the hear, understand, obey...you have to have ALL aspects present) is what the Shema is about (the deut 6 passage that your referred to, OP).

Yes!

[ArmsOfLove]

discipline means to teach; "train them up" is better understood with the imagery of "steep them in" so yes we teach; we steep them in the way they should go--make it their entire context They know nothing else because it's all they experience.

Leave no option to misbehave--prepare, stop and instruct, prevent, set up for success

And Tripp is offensive on many levels--hitting a 9mo for wiggling in a high chair has nothing to do with biblical discipline, with understanding the development and abilities of a 9mo, or with parenting at all

[WingsOfTheMorning]

I read this thread earlier today, including katiekind's blog post, and I've been mulling it over all day. Thank you, ladies for explaining this. It's like it was in my head before, but now I feel like I could actually explain what I think about sin w/ regards to toddlers (I did to DH at dinner ).

[Hilary316]

Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove

And Tripp is offensive on many levels--hitting a 9mo for wiggling in a high chair has nothing to do with biblical discipline, with understanding the development and abilities of a 9mo, or with parenting at all

I totally understand what you mean here... But how do you explain that to people (like in my church) who believe that babies are little sinners and when they are old enough to rebel, they are old enough to be spanked? I dont believe that, of course, but when my friend tells me she pops her 10 mo old's hand for reaching for the living room plant "after I told him not to already", it just makes me sad at how she must view her child... As a little sinner who must be straightened out or he'll become a reprobate.

Its frustrating. (As Im sure you all know!)

---------- Post added at 09:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 PM ----------

Originally Posted by katiekind

I think generally people do "turn out ok" especially if their parents are involved and committed to them.

That's a comforting thought because we're all making mistakes in our parenting as we go along.

Still, we want to consider whether our means to any given goal is Christlike, and not only the value of the end goal. Because we are Christians, some means -- even to a good goal -- are not open to us.

Yes, many Christians think, "I must spank for direct defiance, even if for nothing else." I do not know where they get that idea but you're right, it is very prevalent.

I don't think direct defiance in a two year old is so very scary. I also don't think that parents have total access to the mind of a two year old to be able to know "THAT was Direct Personal Defiance--and nothing else." Wouldn't it be sad to spank in that situation, and later learn that the child wasn't feeling well, or was scared about something they couldn't put into words?

I remember the time my middle son, aged 4, refused to walk a single step farther at the San Diego Zoo with us. We had one last thing we wanted to do, and that was to see the new tiger exhibit. Middle son politely declined to go.

He was told that we were all going, it would be great, didn't he want to see the tigers?

Then he refused.

"Come on," we said. "No more of this. We're going to see the tigers, and then we'll go home."

Then he sat down and refused to budge. My husband went to pick him up and carry him.

He burst into tears -- tears of despair and terror.

Suddenly I realized he didn't understand he would be seeing the tigers from a protected and safe distance.

After we explained that to him, he was very happy to go see them.

However, that's age 4 or 5.

At two, they will sometimes just take an oppositional stand -- go out on that limb and, if you let them, they'll start sawing it off. I have watched many an unwise parent allow a mere two year old to do that--entrench himself or herself in a needless oppositional, "defiant" position, leaving the parent with no apparent choice than to overcome the child's will, and reassert their own authority, by spanking.

I learned from my husband the dignified and gracious art of simply refusing to "go there" with a two year old. If you see them heading out on that limb, don't let them go there, don't let them saw it off.

I wrote a blog post about this that you might find helpful
http://katiekind.wordpress.com/2010/...g-of-toddlers/

Thanks for the post! It helps a LOT! Sometimes I think, especially as a FTM, I just dont know what comes next, kwim? In my measly mind, I think if I have to redirect her 10000 times away from the TV, or whatever, then I'll ALWAYS have to do that... But hearing that isnt true and that they really WILL get it eventually is such a relief to hear!!!

[saturnfire16]

Originally Posted by Hilary316

In my measly mind, I think if I have to redirect her 10000 times away from the TV, or whatever, then I'll ALWAYS have to do that... But hearing that isnt true and that they really WILL get it eventually is such a relief to hear!!!

It is hard to imagine them learning not to do certain things when you're saying the same things over and over for the first year or two or three. When my oldest was 18 months, I started swatting her hands for things like touching the tv. She didn't stop. When I learned about GBD, I stopped doing that and now she is 4 and doesn't mess with the tv. My 2 year old's most recent game is to stand right in front of the tv so her sister can't see it. I tell her to move and then I say "do you want to do it yourself or do you need mama to help?" Then I get up to help. I used to have to physically remove her a few times. Now I usually just tell her to move and she moves. Sometimes I have to make a token effort to look like I'm getting of my chair and she moves. She's not afraid of me, because unlike her sister, she has never been hit. But she still moves. I'm confident that in a few months, this will pass. And then we'll be on to something else!

[SweetCaroline]

i dont really enjoy debating theology on here ..but i'll speak for those of us who do believe in original sin as it applies to children..
no matter what the reason is..even if it IS sin..I see the Lord teaching and guiding us. never beating us into cold conformity.

[katiekind]

even if it IS sin..I see the Lord teaching and guiding us. never beating us into cold conformity

Exactly.

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by elcollins

.
Millions of Christians internalized from a young age the idea that they were offensive to God and struggle with the idea that at the same time God wants a relationship with them. It doesn't make sense to their hearts that accepted early on that they are offensive, so they shy away from His presence.

This plays into the 'spank them till they're sweet' problem. If a child fears they will be hit if they are not 'happy', then they will fake whatever they think the parent will accept (a false positive?). Tripp in essence presents this strange world where he advocates connecting to and molding a child's heart, but then creates situations where the child must present a false self - all resulting in false relationships where the parent can never really know their child's true thoughts or 'heart'.

[portion of quote redacted]

As they mature you can teach them the harder concepts, but I believe Tripp and others who advocate 'teach them how bad they are now' are putting obstacles between God and His children that are so incredibly hard to overcome in the future and rob so many of the joy of life in Christ.

Yes, yes, yes! This is totally me and I hadn't even realized it until you presented it this way. I was parented this way by well-meaning fundamentalist Christian parents, and I grew up with this strange concept of God in which salvation is a great first step for saving you from hell, but the rest of your life is just a constant struggle to keep God happy so that He won't punish you. No one used those words, of course - it was always presented as "don't sin so you can keep God happy and live an abundant life." However, "sin" remained a vague enough concept that anything that displeased my parents could be construed as sin. If I was ever confused or unhappy or behaving improperly, it was always because I was not living right with God and needed to correct XYZ sin. My parents and church always gave lip service to the concept of God loving us, but it was never something I felt or experienced in real life. There was no real understanding of relationship with God or anyone else.

I'm sorry to hijack the thread a bit, but what a revelation! Thanks.

[CelticJourney]

I'm sorry to hijack the thread a bit, but what a revelation!

No hijack - it's the point. You can reach out to your child's heart and help them towards an understanding of God or you can reach out and put obstacles because of a misunderstanding of what discipline and 'training up' means.

[Llee]

Originally Posted by Hilary316

Thanks for the post! It helps a LOT! Sometimes I think, especially as a FTM, I just dont know what comes next, kwim? In my measly mind, I think if I have to redirect her 10000 times away from the TV, or whatever, then I'll ALWAYS have to do that... But hearing that isnt true and that they really WILL get it eventually is such a relief to hear!!!

just to add to this. This summer, Dressy had a thing for kicking the dog. We would give her the ball and tell her, "Kick the ball." MIL told dh, "You know, she's old enough to know better." To which dh replied that Dressy had little to no immpulse control and we were working with her and knowing that, what did she suggest we do? MIL conceded he was right and in late September, I noticed that Dressy wasn't kicking the dog anymore. We were right.