So why is it... - Page 2

abh5e8 · 03-17-2010, 05:07 PM

another angle on the sin issue...i also think it is because its EASY. it produces children that are very easy to live with and provide for, in the short term at least. much the same reason i think baby training and sleep trainig is so popular...i mean really, who WANTS to be up at all hours of the night for days/weeks/months on end?

i think part if the sin issue is our own selfishness

sweetpeasmommy · 03-17-2010, 05:11 PM

People want to be told how to be "good" Christians. They like all the rules and checklists that these authors provide with a promise that if you do it their way, your kids will choose Christ. And they really like patting themselves on the back when they are following the rules and their kids behave well, it makes them feel like *they* made that happen.

Blue-EyedLady · 03-17-2010, 05:46 PM

It sounds like part of the trap is that it seems to "work". Children appear outwardly to be better behaved after being punished. And if you're looking at outcomes as the way to measure if a method is good or not, then it's not surprising that these methods are popular.

klpmommy · 03-17-2010, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue-EyedLady

It sounds like part of the trap is that it seems to "work". Children appear outwardly to be better behaved after being punished. And if you're looking at outcomes as the way to measure if a method is good or not, then it's not surprising that these methods are popular.

But they often only work so long as the "stick" is there. I've been around some great appearing kids who were horrible when there were no authority figures right there.

But at the same time, my mom thinks that since I "turned out so good" she must have been a good mom. But there is so much more to it than that, you know? Good parenting does not necessarily equal good kids. People are way more complicated than that.

Waterlogged · 03-17-2010, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue-EyedLady

It sounds like part of the trap is that it seems to "work". Children appear outwardly to be better behaved after being punished.

If I remember correctly, in the behavioral world, punishment results in short-term behavior change. However, the effects quickly wear off, and the punishment has to increase in severity to result in the same behavior.

So yes, it is initially successful. Depending on the kid, it may only take 1 try to deter them. But others...

Similar to those anti-barking collars for dogs. Some dogs get 1 shock and they stop barking (when the collar is on), some dogs continue to bark despite the collar. And when the collar is off (eg, when the parents aren't around), the barking returns...

filmgirl2911 · 03-17-2010, 06:16 PM

coming back to read through the thread later

ThreeKids · 03-17-2010, 06:19 PM

because fads spread like wildfire, especially when it gets coupled with the problem / methodic "solution" scenario

03-18-2010, 02:26 PM

i agree with these answers.

i'm also working on a theory, sort of.

i don't have a lot of history, so this might be all wrong. tell me if it is

i think that in James Dobson's cultural mileiu, authority and submission vs. rebellion (hippi era) were actually key Christian concepts; it think it was a specific battlefield in that day.

so my theory is that the spanking/god-like authority/obedience#1 ideas working today perhaps came out of that era. So maybe in that time, they were a seeming-answer to the key issues of the day, but today . . . .

i mean, GBD works in any age, but the emphasis of these punitive books I think became accepted by a generation b/c of the glaring cultural issues and sins going on in that time.

anyway, been mulling it over, but i don't have a lick of research to back it up, accept the telling title of dobson's "dare to discipline" speaking of the way childrearing was being perhaps miscontrued by the world in that time, and this was his answer to that . . . .

momyshaver · 03-18-2010, 03:59 PM

bbl to keep up with some of these really good points being made

ThreeKids · 03-18-2010, 08:17 PM

Just my observation, but these methodical approaches seem to prime the reader up with some kind of fear at first.

They'll give parents examples of kids acting up in public and make sure the reader gets the cue to look down on those parents so that they can be fearful of being shamed by that. Why mention that at all unless you wanted to make someone fear NOT following the sage-like remedies you have for them?

There's the fiction of a 3-yr. old showing emotions as being defiance and that defiance is the end of the road. Lose the battle against defiance and the kid can never respect you - wow, there's so much to lose.

I've seen natural parenting books prime up fears as well so punitive gurus don't have a patent on that, but their paradigms sure do rely on accepting the fear first.

---------- Post added at 06:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:10 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by rosanne

Similar to those anti-barking collars for dogs. Some dogs get 1 shock and they stop barking (when the collar is on), some dogs continue to bark despite the collar. And when the collar is off (eg, when the parents aren't around), the barking returns...

My dad's dog got out of his invisible fence the other day. A gap recently formed in the fence - a malfunction. It's an interesting analogy to Dobson's concept of kids always testing boundaries. The dog must've been testing the boundary all the way around and often. Well, it looks like relying on that method of enforcing boundaries could have turned out badly if I hadn't been there to witness him escape.

03-17-2010, 05:07 PM	#16
abh5e8 Deactivated Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Missouri Posts: 5,140	Re: So why is it... another angle on the sin issue...i also think it is because its EASY. it produces children that are very easy to live with and provide for, in the short term at least. much the same reason i think baby training and sleep trainig is so popular...i mean really, who WANTS to be up at all hours of the night for days/weeks/months on end? i think part if the sin issue is our own selfishness

03-17-2010, 05:11 PM	#17
sweetpeasmommy Rose Garden Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 30,329	Re: So why is it... People want to be told how to be "good" Christians. They like all the rules and checklists that these authors provide with a promise that if you do it their way, your kids will choose Christ. And they really like patting themselves on the back when they are following the rules and their kids behave well, it makes them feel like they made that happen. __________________ Amy eNFp Wife to ISTJ DH 1997 Mom to one Sweet Boy 10/2004

03-17-2010, 05:46 PM	#18
Blue-EyedLady Rose Garden The Lion Cub Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Northern Arizona Posts: 10,798	Re: So why is it... It sounds like part of the trap is that it seems to "work". Children appear outwardly to be better behaved after being punished. And if you're looking at outcomes as the way to measure if a method is good or not, then it's not surprising that these methods are popular. __________________ Mama to The Engineer (7 yo) "When I grow up, I'm going to build Highway 100!" The Imaginative Adventurer (4.5 yo) "I'm going to rescue you!" and The Lion Cub (1 yo)- Smart, cute, strong, and unstoppable! Sister to BlessedBlue forever Co-Founder and Lead Writer at Food Allergies On Ice

03-17-2010, 06:16 PM	#21
filmgirl2911 Rose Garden Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: North Carolina Posts: 4,782	Re: So why is it... coming back to read through the thread later __________________ ~ judith blessed with a creative, encouraging man of God for my husband since October 2001 blessed with a delightful, creative little girl since February 2008 blessed with a sweet {but sometimes fierce} empathetic little girl since April 2010 word on the street is I am an ENFP For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

03-17-2010, 06:19 PM	#22
ThreeKids Rose Garden Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: .. Posts: 10,737	Re: So why is it... because fads spread like wildfire, especially when it gets coupled with the problem / methodic "solution" scenario __________________ DS (12), DD (10), DD2 (7) And my kids were going to behave perfectly all the time and if they didn't, they'd be Dobsoned, but I was going to Dobson so perfectly that they'd know not to slip up but once or twice because I was going to be sooooooo consistent and awesome and wise.

03-18-2010, 02:26 PM	#23
missionaryinukraine Guest Posts: n/a	Re: So why is it... i agree with these answers. i'm also working on a theory, sort of. i don't have a lot of history, so this might be all wrong. tell me if it is i think that in James Dobson's cultural mileiu, authority and submission vs. rebellion (hippi era) were actually key Christian concepts; it think it was a specific battlefield in that day. so my theory is that the spanking/god-like authority/obedience#1 ideas working today perhaps came out of that era. So maybe in that time, they were a seeming-answer to the key issues of the day, but today . . . . i mean, GBD works in any age, but the emphasis of these punitive books I think became accepted by a generation b/c of the glaring cultural issues and sins going on in that time. anyway, been mulling it over, but i don't have a lick of research to back it up, accept the telling title of dobson's "dare to discipline" speaking of the way childrearing was being perhaps miscontrued by the world in that time, and this was his answer to that . . . .

03-18-2010, 03:59 PM	#24
momyshaver Rose Trellis Grace is for mamas too! Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place Posts: 2,480	Re: So why is it... bbl to keep up with some of these really good points being made

X vBulletin 3.8.3 Debug Information
Page Generation 0.20884 seconds Memory Usage 7,907KB Queries Executed 14 (?)
More Information
Template Usage: (1)SHOWTHREAD (1)ad_footer_end (1)ad_footer_start (1)ad_header_end (1)ad_header_logo (1)ad_navbar_below (1)ad_showthread_beforeqr (1)ad_showthread_firstpost (1)ad_showthread_firstpost_sig (1)ad_showthread_firstpost_start (3)bbcode_quote (1)cyb_flashimagebanners (1)footer (1)forumjump (1)forumrules (1)gobutton (1)header (1)headinclude (1)navbar (3)navbar_link (60)option (1)pagenav (1)pagenav_curpage (1)pagenav_pagelink (10)post_groan_box (1)post_groan_javascript (1)post_groan_navbar_search (10)post_thanks_box (13)post_thanks_box_bit (1)post_thanks_javascript (1)post_thanks_navbar_search (7)post_thanks_postbit_legacy (10)postbit_legacy (9)postbit_onlinestatus (99)postbit_reputation (10)postbit_wrapper (4)showthread_bookmarksite (1)smqre_editor_button (1)spacer_close (1)spacer_open (1)tagbit_wrapper Phrase Groups Available: global inlinemod postbit posting reputationlevel showthread	Included Files: ./showthread.php ./global.php ./includes/init.php ./includes/class_core.php ./includes/config.php ./includes/functions.php ./includes/class_hook.php ./includes/functions_notice.php ./mobiquo/smartbanner.php ./mobiquo/include/classTTConnection.php ./mobiquo/smartbanner/head.inc.php ./includes/functions_bigthree.php ./includes/class_postbit.php ./includes/class_bbcode.php ./includes/functions_reputation.php ./includes/adminfunctions_template.php ./includes/functions_misc.php ./includes/functions_post_thanks.php ./includes/functions_post_groan.php Hooks Called: init_startup cache_permissions fetch_threadinfo_query fetch_threadinfo fetch_foruminfo style_fetch cache_templates global_start parse_templates fetch_musername notices_check_start global_setup_complete showthread_start template_groups template_safe_functions template_compile showthread_getinfo forumjump showthread_post_start showthread_query_postids showthread_query bbcode_fetch_tags bbcode_create showthread_postbit_create postbit_factory postbit_display_start post_thanks_function_post_thanks_off_start post_thanks_function_post_thanks_off_end post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_start post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_end post_thanks_function_thanked_already_start post_thanks_function_thanked_already_end post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_bit_start post_thanks_function_show_thanks_date_start post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_bit_end post_thanks_function_fetch_post_thanks_template_start post_thanks_function_fetch_post_thanks_template_end post_groan_function_post_groan_off_start post_groan_function_post_groan_off_end post_groan_function_fetch_groans_start post_groan_function_fetch_groans_end post_groan_function_groaned_already_start post_groan_function_groaned_already_end reputation_image postbit_imicons bbcode_parse_start bbcode_parse_complete_precache bbcode_parse_complete postbit_display_complete error_fetch pagenav_page pagenav_complete tag_fetchbit_complete forumrules showthread_bookmarkbit navbits navbits_complete showthread_complete
Messages: