Feeling VERY conflicted....

[Hilary316]

Hello all!

I have been here a few times. Im mostly a big time lurker, but my DD (15 mos) is getting older and is proving to be quite a handful lately. Of course, this leads me to want to find the best/most Biblical way to discipline and teach her "in the Way she should go." I was spanked as a child and I always just thought I would spank my children, too, because isnt that just what Christians do???

Well, of course, now that I have my own child, I have been having a deep inner struggle with this concept. I simply CANNOT reconcile God telling us to hit our children (for any reason) with the love that Jesus showed for children and the mercy and grace of God... Now, don't get me wrong, I know God is just and we are to fear Him, but I just can't imagine Jesus ever hitting a child! Is it wrong to think this???

Im saying all this because I have recently come into conversation with a woman that I truly respect, we are about the same age (Im 25), but I have 1 child while she is expecting her 4th. I dont know her IRL but we met through a message board (not a Christian one). We are both Reformed Baptist and share many of the same theological views. I had asked on the board about different "gentle" discipline techniques and she basically sent me an email (very humble email, mind you, but still..) saying that I need to turn to the Bible for discipline teachings (this of course I agree with!) and not "worldly books." (I had been reading Making the Terrible Twos Terrific! by John Rosemond, who is a Christian, btw) That it was unbiblical to discipline with simply being consistent. Of course, she recommends "Shepherding a Child's Heart" and that we should train our children by addressing their heart issues (Im sure yall know the jist of the book! lol Ive read the SACH Review on here and sent it to her... of course, she didnt like it lol). Now, I fully AGREE that we are all born sinful and that children are sinful, too, they just can't help it. BUT I dont believe we have to hit them in order to "get them under control," especially when other gentler methods WORK and WORK BETTER than punitive discipline.

I think also in her mind, discipline = punishment. When I dont see it that way at all...

This is the message she sent me tonight... It sounds like she says if I dont spank then I am being unbiblical. Psshhh...

"I know you have a problem with spanking, I guess I just see that you are turning to non-spanking and unBiblical solutions. The Book Terrible Twos, may have been written by a "Christian" author, but in the first 10 pages that I read (didn't read the whole thing, just the intro) God was barely mentioned, the Bible was not once referred to and the author said numerous doctrinally incorrect things regarding the sin nature of our kids and the role of parents (being the source of trust for their kids). My fear is that you are turning to the world for wisdom rather than either godly people and or God's word. I know you are a fan of John Piper. All of the books I mentioned in previous emails I learned about through his ministry (Children Desiring God). One of the authors attends Grace Church (John MacArthur's church) and the book is on their list of must reads for new parents. It would be wise to maybe ask your pastor or other godly pastors you know of, for other resources - as a parent you will punish your kids, be it through spankings, time outs, or screaming at them. It will happen, it would be wise to prepare for ways to give your kids a negative consequence within the parameters of scripture, and while pointing our kids to Christ - does that make any sense?"

I just dont know what to say. From her past msgs it sounds like she's saying, "Well, if gentle methods work, ok, but that's not what GOD says to do, just some worldly person who is probably anti-Christ."

I am just utterly confused. It is so hard for someone to tell you that you are being unbiblical (and trust me, I WANT to be told when I am, I mean, what Christian doesnt?) when you feel SO STRONGLY convicted about the "biblical" way to do things.

Can someone help me out?? I love my DD and I just cant imagine ever hitting her.

Anyone know of any articles to share with people like this??? Or is it better to just walk away??

[Mokek Kwe]

I don't have much to offer, but this sounds like a tough situation.
God lets us learn through natural consequences.

[mountainash]

Looking at the whole of Scripture, it's obvious to me that God values honorable relationships. In his book, Loving Our Kids on Purpose by Danny Silk the question is posed, "Which do you think God values more? Relationship or obedience?" That question really put thing into perspective for me. I don't believe it's possible to hit a child without damaging the relationship with that child. I would rather address disobedience in peaceful, non-violent ways and use those discipline moments to build up my connection with my child instead of damage it. I consider that to be "addressing their hearts" more than any thing.

[sweetpeasmommy]

SACH does say that not spanking is unbiblical. I think that was the last sentence I read of that book. I personally would not engage with her anymore on it. You are not telling her how to parent, and she is telling you how to parent. :/ Until you are more secure in what you believe irt discipline, I would probably just say "I think we need to agree to disagree on this ".

Jesus's disciples obeyed because they loved and trusted him, not because they were afraid of him. He never punished them even though they messed up a lot. That's how I hope to point my child towards Christ.

[Kiara.I]

Honestly, I don't think you're going to change her mind by sending her an article.

How does God get our attention? Through relationship. How will God get her attention? Probably through relationship.

Don't try to convince her. Then it's an argument. Just do your thing. Maybe she'll watch and get curious....

My husband keeps telling me, "You can't save them all..." about whatever topic I'm obsessing over at the time...

[WI Mama05]

dont engage. walk away from the conversation. it's okay to agree to disagree on this and set the boundary that it's not a topic open for discussion (AFA her trying to change your mind).

Focus on following God leading you to parent your child the way he is leading. dive into scripture and find peace in his arms. ask your questions here and find compatable resources.

[Meli]

I agree with those who've said don't engage her if she is keeping pushing the issue and not respecting your responses. Something like "Thankyou for sharing what your feelings on the matter. I don't agree with you, which is OK - we can agree to disagree. But I am (child)'s mother, and my parenting choices are not up for discussion."

[NovelMama]

I'm so sorry you're dealing with this struggle.

I strongly recommend "Biblical Parenting" by Crystal Lutton (aka ArmsofLove here on GCM). Also, her website aolff.org has excellent resources that 'unpack' the 'rod' verses that many people use to support spanking as Biblical.

[AugustMama]

Having been in a similar situation before, my advice would be to walk away. If you continue to engage you will most likely just continue to go around and around and never get anywhere. SACH does say that spanking is the only truly "biblical" form of discipline and she seems to have bought into that line of thinking. It sounds like she is looking to church leaders (John Piper, etc.) for direction in regards to parenting instead of to the word of God. Don't be intimidated by what she is saying. Look into the Word yourself, ask God for direction and follow your heart and conscience.

[Johns_Gal]

My guess is, if in isn't unbiblical not to spank, that's going to make her head spin in ways she isn't ready for. Kinda sounds to me like she "has" to be right, else she's swatting her kids... why?

[Herbwifemama]

When you search the Word, don't just look up the "rod" verses (and someone can link to the studies done on the rod here, I hope, since I don't know where to find them), but use a concordance and look up verses on motherhood, situations where God acted as a parent to His people, NT advice on relationships- read Corinthians 13 and ask yourself if loving your children means hitting them according to those verses. Read the verses on the Fruit of the Spirit and ask yourself where punitive discipline fits in there. Does a loving, kind, gentle, patient, self controlled mother spank? Look up other verses on kindness and gentleness and see what God has to say about that. There are FAR FAR more verses in the Bible admonishing us to be kind and gentle than there are telling us to hit our kids (um, cause I don't think ANY verse tells us to hit our kids ).

[Katigre]

as a parent you will punish your kids, be it through spankings, time outs, or screaming at them. It will happen, it would be wise to prepare for ways to give your kids a negative consequence within the parameters of scripture, and while pointing our kids to Christ - does that make any sense?"

How sad that she sees those as the only options for disciplining children. There are a myriad of ways that God trains us in godliness, and there are a myriad of ways that we in turn can train our own children .

I think it is important to start at the foundation of what 'discipline' is and its purpose. My pastor (who really likes John Piper and is a conservative evangelical Christian) just gave a great sermon on grace-based parenting and this was the heart of it:

1. Discipline does NOT equal punishment. Jesus took all of our punishment on the Cross, we no longer have to fear God's punishment and we should not teach our children that they 'need to be punished' when they sin against us. God has lavished his grace on us, and we would be like the parable of the Unmerciful Servant if we turn around and place a heavy burden on our children that they need to bear their own punishment instead of pointing them to Jesus as the one who cleanses that away.

**Now here is where being Reformed Baptist will lead to punitive thinking because of how they view children as not sharing in the blessings of Christ's work on the Cross until they formally make a profession of faith even if they are raised in a Christian home**

2. The purposes of Discipline: Teaching, Training, Protecting, Encouraging. Sometimes discipline is painful because of the consequences of our actions, sometimes discipline is pleasant. But all good discipline should have a PURPOSE in one of the four things above. Discipline does not equal 'pain and suffering', it means 'teaching and equipping' and there are many ways to do that .

3. God gives us great freedom in how we parent our children - there is no formula spelled out in Scripture but there are important guiding principles. God doesn't discipline each of His children in the same exact way and we should not do the same to our children.

4. Be prayerful in your parenting so that you can be guided by the Holy Spirit in how to handle challenging situations - again, there is no formula in a book that is a magic solution.

5. Understand how to balance Grace and Truth in how you discipline - Scripture says that it is the "kindness of God that leads you to repentance" (not the 'harsh punishment of God that leads you to repentance').

Keep asking questions and figuring out how God wants you to disciple your children. For myself, it helps me a lot to remember that the root of 'discipline' is not 'punish or spank' but instead 'disciple'.

One book I found really inspiring in my parenting journey is Sally Clarkson's "The Ministry of Motherhood" and I've also heard great things about her book "The Mission of Motherhood." Her husband wrote a book called "Heartfelt Discipline" that talks about the Rod verses in the Bible and why they don't mean spanking is biblically commanded.

I can tell you from personal experience, that my son who is 4 years old has never been spanked/swatted/slapped and I truly don't see how adding that into my parenting toolbox would help him grow in godliness and obedience .

---------- Post added at 09:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 AM ----------

I also printed out this article and had it around the house when my DS was 15 months old to remind me that there were many effective ways to teach him what he needed to know:

Discipline Ideas for Toddlers by Jeri Carr

[SortaCrunchy]

I agree with what others have said re: don't engage anymore. It is very VERY difficult to grasp the concept of gentle parenting when you view God punitively. BELIEVE ME, I know of what I speak. Until your friend has an epiphany moment when she comes to view God as non-punitive, she will not change her views on parenting. SACH reinforces a punitive view of God, and frankly so does John Piper.

For yourself, where are you feeling conflicted? Is your conflict coming from not being sure of where you stand on biblical parenting? If so, I would suggest you first work on coming to a place of peace about what you understand God's word to say about parenting . . . the rod, discipline, grace, discipleship, all of it. This is far more important than trying to change the perceptions of others. She is responsible to God for the interpretations of His word that she accepts and you are responsible for yourself.

In the future, I might suggest Clay Clarkson's Heartfelt Discipline for those who are more punitive-minded. He is a very conservative Christian man who shows a disciple-based view of the rod (although he does still hold that there are times punishment is necessary, just not that spanking is the only biblical way . . .).

ETA: Katigre - we posted at the same time. I knew you would have some wise words.

[ArmsOfLove]

I know God is just and we are to fear Him

actually this isn't quite correct The fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom--and then perfect love casts out all fear because fear comes from punishment and Messiah took our punishment upon himself while we were yet sinners. We love him because he first loved us

It sounds like this woman is very overly invested in your parenting choices and you don't have to let her be. She doesn't get to dictate how you parent or decide how you feel about your choices

[BarefootBetsy]

I found this article to be very informative:
http://parentingfreedom.com/discipline/

The site seems to be down right now (it was up yesterday ), but here's a link to google's cached page of how it looked yesterday:
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...om/discipline/

I agree with others, don't engage her - instead, focus on learning more yourself. Make sure that *you* are comfortable with your parenting choices because then it won't matter to you what anyone else thinks.

Whichever method of discipline you choose, make sure you know why you're choosing it and that it meshes with your beliefs. I've found that the more comfortable I am with my parenting decisions (ECing, co-sleeping, nursing a 3-year old - as well as striving to raise my children with non-violent discipline), the less other people's opinions bother me. They have a right to their opinions and they won't always agree with mine. That's fine. We were created to be individuals - we were not created to have some sort of hive mind, "You will be assimilated," or anything like that.

It's also possible that she's not 100% comfortable with spanking either and that could be why she's so invested in your parenting. If you, a fellow Christian with very similar beliefs, don't spank and base your non-spanking stance on Biblical principles, then how can she justify her spanking as Biblical?

Read, learn, pray. Let her know that you are doing those three things if she continues to question you about it. Another Christian can't really in good conscience discourage you from doing those three things.

Best wishes!