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Unprepared for Parenting (Ezzos, Pearls, Etc.) *Public* Support and information for those affected by the Ezzos, the Pearls, and other punitive and adversarial methods of child-rearing.
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Old 06-16-2011, 02:35 PM   #16
Heather Micaela
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Default Re: Spanking "works"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Virginia View Post
When I was "confronted" on Facebook about my recent blog post regarding gentle discipline (it was a "coming out" of sorts for me), I realized that I hadn't worked out within myself exactly why spanking "doesn't work" and therefore couldn't articulate it when I wanted to.

One person I want to be able to articulate to is DH. He was spanked growing up but has pretty good relationships with his parents
Ask him if he ever
*decided that the disobediant thing he wanted to do was worth the spanking
*was afraid to admit doing wrong to get out of a spanking
*lied to avoid a spanking
*processed by swapping spanking horror stories with his friends
*flinched when he saw a raised hand (or belt or spoon)
*figured all that mattered was whether or not he got caught
* was confused or angry because he did not know exactly why he got spanked (or figured it was not fair)


I was not spanked but I was raised with shaming as a huge discipline tool. I was a good kid and got along with my parents and do now. BUt I had automatic reactions and fears based on how I was parented. I went to counseling about them since I was already there for some ADHD stuff. And even with total reconciliation when I mess up my first instinct is to cover what I did and second is hearing the voice of my dad yelling in my head.


My goal is not obedience now and goes beyond getting along. It is raising mature ADULTS. Shortcuts lead to lesser end results and punishment/spanking is a shortcut. I want kids/adults who are not afraid own up to their mistakes, do right because they want to do the right thing, and are not carrying baggage and incorrect instincts.

---------- Post added at 02:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 PM ----------

Also - in many cases spanking DOESN'T work and you have to keep upping the ante.
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Old 06-16-2011, 02:43 PM   #17
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Default Re: Spanking "works"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Virginia View Post
One person I want to be able to articulate to is DH. He was spanked growing up but has pretty good relationships with his parents
I was spanked, and I as an adult have a very good relationship with my parents.

That doesn't mean that I want to do everything the same way they did, KWIM? They did what they did at the time because they thought they were doing the right thing-I hold no hard feelings toward them for it.

But I have reasons that I don't want to spank my kids. Some of them are related to how *I* reacted to spanking-ways that my parents still don't know. I can acknowledge that something hurt me/wasn't a good idea/is something I don't want to repeat without having a terrible relationship with my parents.
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Old 06-16-2011, 02:55 PM   #18
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Default Re: Spanking "works"

Thanks, Heather, for this especially:
Quote:
My goal is not obedience now and goes beyond getting along. It is raising mature ADULTS. Shortcuts lead to lesser end results and punishment/spanking is a shortcut. I want kids/adults who are not afraid own up to their mistakes, do right because they want to do the right thing, and are not carrying baggage and incorrect instincts.
So true.

Carrie, thanks for sharing your perspective as someone who was raised being spanked, has a good relationship w/ her parents, yet has still chosen not to spank I really appreciate it.
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Old 06-16-2011, 04:12 PM   #19
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Default Re: Spanking "works"

I think any discipline tool will "work" if it's used consistently. Spanking is an easy tool to implement than gentler methods, and so it's easier to be consistant.

I have seen spanking not work on some kids because in general their parents are never clear and consistent on what is acceptable behavior and have constantly changing and evolving rules that don't even make sense.
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Old 06-16-2011, 04:23 PM   #20
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Default Re: Spanking "works"

I agree . . . of course tons of people swear it "works," they spank and see what they want to see. You can give them all the facts in the world but they won't listen if it means admitting they're wrong (and might have hit their children for no good reason). Just remember they are answering a different question than you want to ask. Why does it "work"? Can you take the parts that "work" (authority, prompt response, consistency) without the pain and fear of spanking?

I was spanked growing up and many things "worked." For years I said I was "fine" but you know what? I could be better. I could have less fear and anger inside. I want better for my children. I want to love them as best I can. Did Jesus spank little children? (Does society even spank our worst criminals, even prisoners of war?) Why don't my children deserve better? How can we give them our BEST?

I don't want to and don't need to spank, and that's not about whether it works for other people. And in my experience your husband will learn this best by your example.
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Old 06-16-2011, 04:42 PM   #21
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Default Re: Spanking "works"

Thanks, ladies.
I guess I'm optimistic and hopeful that we'll come to an agreement on this issue (and approach parenting with similar mindsets) BEFORE we have kids. I can foresee a lot of tension if we have a child and he still wants to spank. I know it's not impossible and that many of you awesome mamas here have set good examples for your husbands. That's encouraging to me. I'd really love if he and I could agree on this issue, though.

...and I know I can't change his heart or his mind I'm just trying to educate myself so that when we do discuss it in conversation, I can be well-equipped to give an answer for my conviction
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Old 06-16-2011, 04:48 PM   #22
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Default Re: Spanking "works"

i know people who are still spanking their 8 yr olds..even up to 14 in one family! its like, when do they admit 'ok, this is NOT working' ..or "did this EVER work?" whats the desired result i wonder? do they know once they've reached it? what does it look like when it works?

it just makes no sense.
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Old 06-16-2011, 04:52 PM   #23
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Default Re: Spanking "works"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirstyTurtle View Post
I think any discipline tool will "work" if it's used consistently. Spanking is an easy tool to implement than gentler methods, and so it's easier to be consistant.

I have seen spanking not work on some kids because in general their parents are never clear and consistent on what is acceptable behavior and have constantly changing and evolving rules that don't even make sense.
I have seen it used consistently and yet the literal sting wears off. Kids brace for it, endure, then misbehave again

Spanking TEACHES nothing.
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Old 06-16-2011, 04:55 PM   #24
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Default Re: Spanking "works"

But does it really work when you must spank a few days later for the same offense? Or you can GOYB and help them or make it happen many times and eventually they learn. Either way, it takes time. I think I first heard Crystal say that on one hand you can spank or GBD on the other and either way, once they reach the developmental stage they move out of that behavior. The one lady says it is the result of her spanking, but really we see the child may have just caught up cognitively with what the parents were requiring.
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Old 06-16-2011, 05:00 PM   #25
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Default Re: Spanking "works"

Bolt I liked what you said, could I use what you said on facebook?? (quote you?)

Spanking can work, depending on your goal... is your goal just "obedient" children? Is it children who are learning to think about their actions and how they effect others? Is it raising children that have a mind of their own? My goal is not "obedient" children so spanking won't work toward my goal in parenting.
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Old 06-16-2011, 05:17 PM   #26
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Default Re: Spanking "works"

What is "now" is likely not "what will be".

Dh and I both throught spanking was just part of parenting, until I realized what it had done to me and put the brakes on. Read a bit, found GCM. Got pregnant.

DH? He was Mr. Physical Discipline, pro-circumcision, some CIO is fine, vaccines re a probability...

Yeah. About that. Everything up there he is now the polar opposite of. Course, he still talks a big game sometimes (being male and southern and all), but I could no more see him raising a hand to a child than he would kick a puppy. I suppose some of it is that he trusts my research, and knows I read everything I could gets my hands on while I was pregnant. *shrug*

I wouldn't fret too much. You may find he changes with time and a baby, but if not, just stock your own toolbox so you can help show him the better way.
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Old 06-16-2011, 05:25 PM   #27
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Default Re: Spanking "works"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heather Micaela View Post
I have seen it used consistently and yet the literal sting wears off. Kids brace for it, endure, then misbehave again

Spanking TEACHES nothing.
True. That's how it was for me as a child. Although my parents spanked for everything ... even obvious accidents because I shouldn't have been clumsy. I wonder if the sting wearing off is correlated to the frequency of spankings. If you are getting spanked multiple times per day every day, that might be different from being spanked occasionally over specific things.

But from my observations, it does seem to work pretty well on many kids. Although my belief is that just because it might work doesn't mean it is right.
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Old 06-16-2011, 05:34 PM   #28
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Default Re: Spanking "works"

I definitely believe the first question that needs to be asked is "what are the goals of parenting?" Once you know where you're going it becomes much easier to find an effective path to get there. Spanking would not "work" for anything we are aiming for in our parenting.
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Old 06-16-2011, 06:04 PM   #29
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Default Re: Spanking "works"

The ladies had so many wise words to share on this question. For me, I want to parent from a place of love, mercy, and authenticity. I want to be able to know that no matter what is happening between my child and me, the bond of love is absolute and unquestionable. So, anything that serves to break down that bond is not something that will work for my parenting goals. In that line of thinking, I steer away from not just spanking, but other forms of punishment as well. When I realized as an adult how unconditionally and infinitely I am loved by God and that even in the midst of my sin, I can turn to Him and He is right there to take me in His arms and forgive me, this is what I wanted my son to grow to learn about God as a child (instead of having to go through years and years of baggage, therapy, many many wrong choices to discover). As a side note, boundaries can still be taught without the use of spanking or other forms of punishment. I think a lot of parents think parents who don't spank do not teach their children boundaries or appropriate behaviors. Perhaps you could delve a bit on this with your hubby to see if he is concerned that not spanking would be the same as being permissive?
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Old 06-16-2011, 06:19 PM   #30
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Default Re: Spanking "works"

Quote:
Originally Posted by bolt. View Post
Of course spanking works.

Everybody knows that pain and the threat of pain change behaviour (to the degree that it is possible for a person to change it).

That's what works in abusive situations. It also worked in consentration camps. It works on animals. I wouldn't be surprised if if worked on worms or ameboeas.

It would be plum-stupid to claim that spanking doesn't work on children (within the limits of development).

Do you know what else "works" in human relationships? Extortion, bribery, captivity, enslavement, blackmail, theft, deception, manipulation, intoxication, propoganda, hypnosis (maybe not), isolation -- personal violence is not the only thing that "works" but isn't right.

The reason we avoid doing these things to other people is not because they wouldn't work... we avoid doing them because they are morally wrong. Lots of morally-wrong tactics "work" just fine. Many of them "work" really, really well. But we just don't do those things, because it's wrong to treat people that way.

I'm getting used to this space of the logic of:
If A: It's wrong to hit people...
And B: Children are people...
Therefore: It's wrong to hit children.

If that's true, it doesn't matter in the slightest if it "works".
This.
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  • ./includes/class_hook.php
  • ./includes/functions_notice.php
  • ./mobiquo/smartbanner.php
  • ./mobiquo/include/classTTConnection.php
  • ./mobiquo/smartbanner/head.inc.php
  • ./includes/functions_bigthree.php
  • ./includes/class_postbit.php
  • ./includes/class_bbcode.php
  • ./includes/functions_reputation.php
  • ./includes/adminfunctions_template.php
  • ./includes/functions_misc.php
  • ./includes/functions_post_thanks.php
  • ./includes/functions_post_groan.php 

Hooks Called:
  • init_startup
  • cache_permissions
  • fetch_threadinfo_query
  • fetch_threadinfo
  • fetch_foruminfo
  • style_fetch
  • cache_templates
  • global_start
  • parse_templates
  • fetch_musername
  • notices_check_start
  • global_setup_complete
  • showthread_start
  • template_groups
  • template_safe_functions
  • template_compile
  • showthread_getinfo
  • forumjump
  • showthread_post_start
  • showthread_query_postids
  • showthread_query
  • bbcode_fetch_tags
  • bbcode_create
  • showthread_postbit_create
  • postbit_factory
  • postbit_display_start
  • post_thanks_function_post_thanks_off_start
  • post_thanks_function_post_thanks_off_end
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_start
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_end
  • post_thanks_function_thanked_already_start
  • post_thanks_function_thanked_already_end
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_bit_start
  • post_thanks_function_show_thanks_date_start
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_thanks_bit_end
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_post_thanks_template_start
  • post_thanks_function_fetch_post_thanks_template_end
  • post_groan_function_post_groan_off_start
  • post_groan_function_post_groan_off_end
  • post_groan_function_fetch_groans_start
  • post_groan_function_fetch_groans_end
  • post_groan_function_groaned_already_start
  • post_groan_function_groaned_already_end
  • reputation_image
  • bbcode_parse_start
  • postbit_imicons
  • bbcode_parse_complete_precache
  • bbcode_parse_complete
  • postbit_display_complete
  • error_fetch
  • post_groan_function_fetch_groan_bit_start
  • post_groan_function_show_groan_date_start
  • post_groan_function_fetch_groan_bit_end
  • post_groan_function_fetch_post_groan_template_start
  • post_groan_function_fetch_post_groan_template_end
  • pagenav_page
  • pagenav_complete
  • tag_fetchbit_complete
  • forumrules
  • showthread_bookmarkbit
  • navbits
  • navbits_complete
  • showthread_complete