Article my mom sent me

[jewelmcjem]

At first, I was surprised because I thought the preacher was agreeing with the idea of working with your child instead of punishing them, and frankly I didn't expect that from a conservative country Church of Christ preacher. But then I realized he was quoting that to disagree with it. Now, how do I explain to my mom that discipline does not equal demanding first time obedience and that gentle parenting does not equal disobedient children, gently and lovingly. She really was trying to help us girls (I have a sister with a 2yo and a sister with a 16yo) out, but I want to explain why that sounds good but isn't so good in reality. I may take these ideas and flesh them out into a blog post or FB note as well (with proper kudos of course).

Thought you girls might like to see what our preacher says about raising kids....I had to chuckle~
Mom

ODD #1

Many of us parents are aware of the behavioral problems that children often have. They don?t like to obey, to go to bed on time, to eat their spinach, to learn potty training, to listen to mom and dad, to put away their toys, and a host of similar such behaviors.
I?m not sure these are really behavior problems, though. They are simply manifestations of a child?s self-will. They only become real problems if the parents allow the self-will of the child to override the wiser, more experienced will of the parents. The self-will of the child really only becomes problematic or destructive if the parents allow the child?s self-will to rule the home. If parents don?t exert their rule in the home they can expect some heavy duty problems. Instead of peace and happiness there will be chaos.
Most parents know this from experience. We learn that if we stand up to a disobedient two year old and insist they get in the tub, put away their toys, and stop biting their siblings, and we enforce our rule, things go so much more smoothly.
But, there are explanations given by some experts in child psychology about potential problems children might have that make it more difficult for them to obey the direction of the parents. There can be attention deficit disorder, known as ADD. There can be attention deficit hyper-activity disorder, known as ADHD. There can be NLD - nonverbal learning disability. There can also be other emotional disorders such as anxiety, depression and social stresses that can make a child more prone to acting out and rebelling. Just recently I?ve been introduced to a term describing another childhood problem: oppositional defiant disorder, or ODD.
Ross Greene, the author of The Explosive Child, says, "Many of these kids don?t have the kind of thinking ability required to process a problem on their own, and so they get highly frustrated and have meltdowns instead." Of course, we parents know those meltdowns are screaming bouts, temper tantrums, and even acting out with slapping and kicking toward siblings and parents.
Greene also says that constant conflict with parents can make the situation worse. He advises parents to find other means of dealing with a child who may be experiencing ODD. We can begin by helping children learn how to solve their problems. For example, suppose you call your child into the house to wash his hands for dinner. But, he doesn?t want to stop playing. So, there is a problem solving situation for the child which he might express by refusing to come in or by screaming. Greene suggests saying to him, "I understand that you feel really angry when its time to come in for dinner." You have shown empathy with his problem. Now you move toward problem solving and ask something like, "Can you think of a way that we can work this out?" Then, you and the child discuss various alternatives.
On the surface, this approach has some appeal to it. In practical application, though, I think this approach will guarantee one thing: that you will raise a child that is insecure, self-centered, egotistical, explosively angry, verbally and physically violent, and a menace to himself and others. I may have left a few things out but I think this list covers most of it.
The first problem solving situation a child needs to learn is that of obeying the voice of mom and dad. Period. When mom says, "Come in, its time to eat," that is a nonnegotiable. It doesn?t matter if the child gets angry because it wants to play. It matters that the child comes in immediately on the first call. If the child doesn?t come in, then there is a problem, and it can only be resolved by mom or dad exerting the parental will and "helping the child" into the house, either by a firm grip on the arm or a warming of the bottom.
The Bible speaks of teaching and disciplining a child (Eph. 6:4; Prov. 13:24; 19:18; 22:15; 23:13,14) and of children obeying the parents (Eph. 6:1-3; Col. 3:20; Prov. 1:8; 2:3; 6:20; 13:1), but it says nothing of engaging in psychological games with each other. If you don?t train your child to obey you, then your child may never obey any authority, including God, and that is a failure of the parents. If you love your child, prepare him or her for life by teaching obedience and respect for the voice of instruction and authority, and that voice is yours, mom and dad.

The bolded part especially -- blech!!!

[CapeTownMommy]

[jewelmcjem]

I guess one place to start might be with the preacher's assertion that one must "help the child" to obey, but giving ideas beyond "a firm grip on the arm or warming the bottom".

[StewardofLOs]

oh give me a break

so basically if you aren't "fully in control" and "exerting your will" at all times, you are a permissive, unbiblical, horrible parent who's raising a brat

once again it comes down to whether you're more interest in molding the heart or the body. I can tell you that I learned quickly to immediately obey my parents without question......and for years I hated them and myself, and am just now (through the grace of the God that GCM has reintroduced me to) learning to forgive them

[StewardofLOs]

Originally Posted by jewelmcjem

I guess one place to start might be with the preacher's assertion that one must "help the child" to obey, but giving ideas beyond "a firm grip on the arm or warming the bottom".

exactly! because he is assuming that spanking actually helps one "learn" to obey

He does have a pretty silly example. No, you don't necessarily engage in an in depth psychological discussion with the child--a simple rundown of the 5 steps, adapted to the age of the child, would be all that was necessary

[DoulaClara]

Plus, he's making the obvious mistake in defining ODD, which is a true dx of a serious issue, not simply children misbehaving. The whole thing is fairly shallow and even looks like it would be very little help to punitive parents.

[Treenahurricane]

Ugh... Someone giving "advice" w/o addressing the real issues. I think acknowledging a child's feelings does help. Not necessarily giving them full lead of what they can do if you have told (not asked) them to do something you need done (especially in any situation where immediate reaction is needed such as stopping a child from crossing the street without looking, anything that could risk injury to themselves or others), but if it's a petty thing, I think that choices can be helpful! You can wash your hands w/ the washcloth or in the sink. You can have more beans or more meat if you don't like a particular food being served. I don't see how spanking the child helps the child to learn to make wise choices in any manner. And I hate those comments that suggest that if you don't expect your child to listen to every single thing the second you tell them, they will be horrible people and not Christians.

What a disappointment!!

[tigerlily]

He used "it" at one point to refer to the child -- grrrr.

If you don?t train your child to obey you, then your child may never obey any authority, including God, and that is a failure of the parents.

I do think his premise is wrong here, but

If you love your child, prepare him or her for life by teaching obedience and respect for the voice of instruction and authority, and that voice is yours, mom and dad.

I think his premise is right here. Isn't this what we're trying to accomplish in our parenting? Obviously, just using a vastly different approach.

[mommasgirl]

Originally Posted by tigerlily

I think his premise is right here. Isn't this what we're trying to accomplish in our parenting? Obviously, just using a vastly different approach.

I agree.

Teaching obedience is very important, but while using his method may get immediate short-term results, it doesn't address the real issue. IMO it's no good just trying to correct behavior, which is just an expression of something that is happening at a deeper level. If we can address the heart attitude of the child, the behavior will automatically change. I have found that the more gentle I am, and the deeper I look (beyond just the external behavior) the more my DD wants to be obedient.

[MissusLeata]

I think that first time obedience is a great goal. I'm still working on it with the my obedience to God. But if I, as a 32 year old still have to work on it, I should accept that my 19 mo. old has a lot more work to do before he gets there.

I often heard (was in Bill Gothard's homeschool group) that delayed obedience is disobedience. But that's not Scriptural. When Jesus gave the parable of the two sons, the one who said he would obey but didn't and the one who said he wouldn't but did, He said that the second one obeyed. He didn't call it disobedience just because it wasn't "exactly what he was told to do, when he was told to do it and with a good attitude." Sometimes, cliches and cute little sayings take hold without being examined.

My FIL is a pastor. He told us about a sermon he preached and a paper he handed out. He was excited about it and said that God had really blessed the service. He may have, and the sermon may have been great. But he sent us the paper he handed out. It's called "A letter to Garcia." It was awful. It sounded good to some extent, and I could see why some people would like it. But it simply wasn't true. It had a lot of blanket, false statements. My husband pointed it out to his dad, who simply didn't notice those things.

It's easy to just say things that sound like they make sense to us without thinking it through -- especially when we've heard it from "the authorities" on the subject.

[katiekind]

If the child doesn?t come in, then there is a problem, and it can only be resolved by mom or dad exerting the parental will and "helping the child" into the house

Without being so melodramatic as this writer, I can agree that if the child doesn't come in, then it can be resolved by helping the child into the house. End of drama.

[tigerlily]

I often heard (was in Bill Gothard's homeschool group) that delayed obedience is disobedience. But that's not Scriptural. When Jesus gave the parable of the two sons, the one who said he would obey but didn't and the one who said he wouldn't but did, He said that the second one obeyed. He didn't call it disobedience just because it wasn't "exactly what he was told to do, when he was told to do it and with a good attitude." Sometimes, cliches and cute little sayings take hold without being examined.

Excellent rebuttal to the "first time obedience" argument! In fact, it may be the best I've ever heard!

Does the writer of the article think that ADHD and ODD don't exist?

[Titus2Momof4]

For example, suppose you call your child into the house to wash his hands for dinner. But, he doesn?t want to stop playing. So, there is a problem solving situation for the child which he might express by refusing to come in or by screaming. Greene suggests saying to him, "I understand that you feel really angry when its time to come in for dinner." You have shown empathy with his problem. Now you move toward problem solving and ask something like, "Can you think of a way that we can work this out?" Then, you and the child discuss various alternatives.
On the surface, this approach has some appeal to it. In practical application, though, I think this approach will guarantee one thing: that you will raise a child that is insecure, self-centered, egotistical, explosively angry, verbally and physically violent, and a menace to himself and others.

I honestly don't see how showing empahthy is going to teach a child to be "self-centered" and "egotistical" (or any of those other things, but especially those two). That really makes no sense. If anything, showing empathy *teaches* empathy and consideration for others....

If you don?t train your child to obey you, then your child may never obey any authority, including God

Now, I can actually see the logic behind this. However, I think he and I might disagree on what "obeying" "must" look like... It sounds like to him, there is only one right way of obeying, and (speaking of egotistical!!) it sounds as if you don't teach your children to obey HIS way, they may never obey any authority. I disagree that it has to be done HIS way (the way he's alluding to, anyway).

He used "it" at one point to refer to the child -- grrrr.

Now this I am not seeing Can you point me to this?