Somethings' bothering me

[Titus2Momof4]

NO, and I've explained this several times. It means I choose how to respond to someone and if they have a negative intent they will eventually reveal it, as the little girl in your story did. But I'm still going to respond to her as though she has a positive intent because otherwise I'm just attacking her and that doesn't lead to a solution. Ever hear of giving someone the benefit of the doubt for your own sanity? Same idea.

Crystal...

I remember once you said something to me, and it didn't fully "click" with me for at least 2 more weeks lol, but you said something along the lines of "it doesn't matter whether the child drew on the wall on accident or on purpose, you CHOOSE how you are going to respond" I couldn't grasp how drawing on the wall was ever "accidental", but then someone else pointed out that No it wasnt accidental, but could the child have really known that it was permanent (if they did it with permanent marker)? Chances are, No they had no idea that it wouldn't come off. Whether they did it intentionally or not, we should accept this moment as it is (ETLDTD), and there is still a mess whether on purpose or not. Therefore....get the mess taken care of. This really isn't a discipline issue..it's a "you make a mess, you clean it up" issue. I think most kids (or at least my own) would know that I am upset that the walls are colored on, I would give them the materials and help clean it up, and probably my disappointment would be enough to deter them from doing this again. Meanwhile, being *proactive* my kids are no longer allowed to have crayons except at the table where I can watch, since they have shown that they are too tempted to color on the walls when out of my sight. (I'm just now allowing colored pencils in their room, w/o my direct watchful eye, and so far so good )

*WHAT* do you want to train your kids to do or be?

If I could be granted on wish regarding Mason's behavior that would just be instantly much improved tomorrow, it would be this: I wish he didn't cry/whine or freak out so easily. Some days I tolerate it better than others. Today was one of those days. I spent an hour sitting on the floor of the nursery at the homeschool co-op and missed my yoga class because he *ahem - uh, doesn't separate well. For forty minutes, he wouldn't even let go of my shirt and put his feet on the floor; he stood on my thighs and clung to my shoulders. He was like a cat trying to go up a tree! The nursery worker offered to pry him off so I could leave, but I couldn't do that when he seemed to be *SO* upset, knowing when he goes in there, I leave. Today I felt like, "Oh well. There will be other yoga classes. It won't last forever. " But honestly, I don't always feel that way about things like this. Sometimes I'm just tired of everything taking ten times the effort with him.

[ArmsOfLove]

As for the Hebrew/Greek--the Hebrew Bible was translated into the Greek as the Septuagint.

Well, now I don't know how far back it was, but, what has bothered me is I feel the overall tone at GCM has become more and more permissive. And I think part of it is possibly that people are afraid to make a suggestion that someone might think is on the harsh side and so most of the suggestions are either just commiseration or lean toward some version of "It's too much to expect from the child." You know, like (out-of-the-air example, not anybody's post),"My toddler throws his food." And someone will say, "Well, toddlers throw food; that's normal." If I personally were posting the question, that answer would not help me at all! That it's normal doesn't mean I plan to accept it! If I posted that question, my aim would be for someone to tell me what they've done (or think they could do) that made this behavior subside quickly.

I can understand this and I think that to some extent it's a valid criticism. I happen to think that we have a pretty decent balance--the posters who are great at pointing out what is age expected because many people have unrealistic expectations and the people who post ideas and suggestions and solutions. I do consider this something that the site is working on--I've been overwhelmed in the GD forum for some time and when Joanne is able to be online she posts great non-permissive stuff And we're getting me help there.

As for Mason, I would really encourage you to read Dr. Greenspan's "The Challenging Child" because I think it would really speak to you AND offer you some very practical answers!

I do believe that when "I know this is normal but it's not okay, what have you done to curb this behavior?" is posted there are great solutions offered

And Crystal, I'm confused about your son's autism, too. When I first came here, I think Liam was 4. I read your site then, and the roadblock to gentle discipline, as you describe it was Celiac Disease. Does Liam have CD, or were you mistaken then and it was actually Autism? When was he dxed with Autism? What made you think maybe he had Autism? Why are all your children on gf/cf and no corn diets? Are they all autistic, or have CD, or what? scratching head I guess I missed learning these things because I don't spend as much time here as I did when I first came.

When Liam was 4 I knew he had Celiac and I suspect he had Asperger's but it was undx and I was doing OT with him at home. We finally got him to a specialist a few months ago and he said that Liam has high functioning Autism but appears as Asperger's because of all the work I've done with him and the GF/CF diet we have him on. When he gets gluten he has full blown autism I've always known something was going on in addition to or in conjunction with the Celiac but it took us a long time to find out (in fact, the referral went in LAST YEAR and we didn't get our appt until August ). I have Celiac and all of my children have various reactions to gluten and corn (it causes me migraines). (edited to add that corn sensitivity is very common with Celiac)

I want to throw out a suggestion to you . . . first, it is being documented and researched why there are so many children with special needs, food issues and autism spectrum disorders. The doctors are noting this phenomenon and there are a few different theories which I think will probably have some cross over and validity. Second, I am finding through private conversation with many moms that they end up here and with GBD because nothing else "works" when children have special needs. There are methods of conditioning them but they don't *get* that what they're doing it wrong so they don't *get* why you're even upset. Punishing them is really just cruel So when parents have these special children they end up searching for answers and when they find GBD they find that it doesn't matter why a child is doing something, you respond to it! Our specialist highly recommends PD for all of his patients' homes

[milkmommy]

my aim would be for someone to tell me what they've done (or think they could do) that made this behavior subside quickly.But, see I think that someone who has an older child than mine, or more children than me and has been through a food-thrower or two will not post. Because they would post, "Take his plate away and clean him up. Throwing food in our house meant you weren't hungry enough to eat it. Maybe at your next meal, you'll be hungrier." But they won't post that! Really, the only person who springs to mind who has the guts to post something like that is Joanne, but she doesn't post much anymore. (I think? I haven't seen her...anyway.

you need to read more of my (and others) posts One thing you need to understand is my guess Joanne (who is still here ) like myself is an introvert Crystal for example is likely more extroverted. I much like Joanne tend to be well blunt. We do tend to post more this is the rule do it quit complaining and there you go.. Crystal tends to address the heart remind us that yes tossing food is age appropiate and normal but it doesn't need to be allowed.She'll often point out the need for say textured play etc and many others will do this as well. While some of us are just more heads on deal with the question. It doesn't make me less gracefull and it doesn't make Crystal or others permissive. I kow i had issues with the "ts age appropiate comments as well they felt like excuses but as I've read and learned I realize thats not whats being said..
Oh and I applgize to Crystal or Joanne or any other if I just totally hacked there life apart.

Deanna

[katiekind]

uh, doesn't separate well.

I wish he didn't cry/whine or freak out so easily.

Is Mason only one or two years old? I'm looking at your signature line there. I'm sure that's hard with the older kids keeping you on the go.

I just want to share with you about my oldest son--to encourage you.

My oldest was our high need velcro baby/toddler. The others were not like this. But he was. Anyways, I was basically his lifeline to reality when he was little, but one day, he just started separating very easily. For instance, at three, I couldn't put him in pre-school. It was like we were trying to torture him. I trusted this reaction and went on the assumption that if he was ready for this experience, he would show it. The following September I could tell things had changed so we gave it another try. This time he marched right in like he owned the place, made friends with everyone and was only unhappy when it was time to go home.

Today my son is a popular entertainer/musician and a very outgoing, gregarious person. You would laugh to think he once could have been described like Mason as a toddler who "uh, doesn't separate well" If only we could see into the future at those moments when we're really wondering what these toddler behaviors mean. It would help so much! I did struggle with how much to push and how much to trust his reactions--I can identify with that. I am thankful for people who reminded me that kids outgrow these needs when the needs are filled. That's exactly how it worked for us.

[euromom]

Originally Posted by ServantofGod

Crystal, I don't feel that the GBD *concept* is permissive, at least not usually...re-read what I said. Well, now I don't know how far back it was, but, what has bothered me is I feel the overall tone at GCM has become more and more permissive. And I think part of it is possibly that people are afraid to make a suggestion that someone might think is on the harsh side and so most of the suggestions are either just commiseration or lean toward some version of "It's too much to expect from the child." You know, like (out-of-the-air example, not anybody's post),"My toddler throws his food." And someone will say, "Well, toddlers throw food; that's normal." If I personally were posting the question, that answer would not help me at all! That it's normal doesn't mean I plan to accept it! If I posted that question, my aim would be for someone to tell me what they've done (or think they could do) that made this behavior subside quickly.But, see I think that someone who has an older child than mine, or more children than me and has been through a food-thrower or two will not post. Because they would post, "Take his plate away and clean him up. Throwing food in our house meant you weren't hungry enough to eat it. Maybe at your next meal, you'll be hungrier." But they won't post that! Really, the only person who springs to mind who has the guts to post something like that is Joanne, but she doesn't post much anymore. (I think? I haven't seen her...anyway.)

I just wanted to pipe in and say that in my 5mo here on GCM I have gotten nothing but good help and advice on what to do when there is an "age appropriate behavior that is not appropriate" I've seen and took the advice of plenty of posters who have given advice on things that can be done when our kids are doing things that are, yes, age appropriate, but are not appropriate and I have learned to teach my almost 2yr old ds a very many appropriate behaviors in a GBD way thanks to GCM!

[ArmsOfLove]

"Take his plate away and clean him up. Throwing food in our house meant you weren't hungry enough to eat it. Maybe at your next meal, you'll be hungrier."

Well without the snarky little stab at the end I've posted this thousands of times

[milkmommy]

Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove

Well without the snarky little stab at the end I've posted this thousands of times

and would be a great example of knowing whats "age appropite" a toddler doesn't have the maturity to think hey you know what I should eat now because if I don't I might be hungry and there wont be a way for me to get food latter. Like you and I can think its 11am I'm not really hungry but I have a meeting thats going to be from 12-3pm I better try to eat something now. Saying maybe you'll be hungry latter They likley will but they wont relate not eatting earlier to the reason why.

Deanna

I also want to say that the advice that I have received here has always included both - 1) that the behaviour is age appropriate: which allows me to think differently about the behaviour and 2) different ways to deal with it.

It's the same when I have offered advice to a friend - I will encourage her to see that the behaviour is normal for her son's age - and then I will suggest ways to deal with it.

I will also say that in the past I have tended to be a lot more permissive and it has actually been GCM that has helped me with setting boundaries and enforcing them of course.

I don' t see that saying something is age appropriate is permissive - I think it helps us to lower our expectations of our child and teach them accordingly.

[euromom]

Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove

Well without the snarky little stab at the end I've posted this thousands of times

And I've seen it posted several times. Having the "snarky little stab" at the end would make that punitive, adding on something to make the kid feel bad for what they have done. Cleaning the kid up and allowing him to go hungry is allowing a natural consequence to help teach them that if they play at the table and don't eat they will be hungry. Or what I do with my son (because *I* don't want to have the natural consequence of waking up *with him* in the middle of the night when he is hungry and can't sleep) I tell him "When we make a mess we clean it up!" and have him, or help him, to clean what he threw, even if he doesn't like the idea of cleaning it. Those last 2 responses would be GBD.

It seems from what you have posted and stated that you are afraid of being too permissive. But the other side of that is being too punitive. GBD is a whole different paradigm. Sometimes I do see myself caught in a pendelum swing between permissiveness and punitive and then I realize I have to step out of that thinking all together and that is where I find GBD.

People are posting while I keep trying to post mine but I will go ahead and post anyway.

[euromom]

Originally Posted by Narritjan

I will also say that in the past I have tended to be a lot more permissive and it has actually been GCM that has helped me with setting boundaries and enforcing them of course.

me too!

[mamahammer]

I am just horrified by the suggestion that parents go looking for things like autism and/or food sensitivites in order to excuse behavior.  

Angry doesn't even begin to describe it.

For all of the times that I have had to repeat to my MIL that Thomas really does have high-functioning autism, and all of the times that I have felt the need to negate her assertion that we are just "bad" parents who don't know how to deal with their own children - well, for every 1000 tmes I have gone over this with her, it just takes one person, one Christian person, telling her that it's all a made up epidemic, to put us right back at square one.  I cannot tell you how infuriating your assertion is.

There is nothing easy about being a gentle mama to an autistic child.  Especially an autistic child who is "normal" enough to not appear disordered to a stranger's eye.  I have had other mamas use my child as the example of "what not to be" in the grocery store.  Mamas who, when my son gets spooked because a stranger has walked into the aisle we are on at Target, will stoop down to her daughter's level and very loudly proclaim "See, honey.  That is just not appropriate behavior.  Mommy is sooo proud of you for not acting like that boy."  And you want to know what the "easy" thing to do would be?  To smack his leg and tell him to be quiet.  It wouldn't work - in fact, it would make things ten times worse. And it would literally leave him afraid of me for weeks or months afterwards. Weeks and months when he would go around saying over and over again, "No smack Thomas. No smack Thomas. Thomas scared."  But it would make other parents think that I am "doing my job" by beating my child.

It's not easy putting my son on the "short bus" every morning.  It's not easy taking him to OT, PT and ST every week.  It's not easy explaining sensory integration dysfunction to people ignorant of the issue.

It's certainly not easy when my boy wakes up four times at night, scared to death that his mommy and daddy have been killed.  He's 3.5, and my poor boy believes with his whole being at 2am that we are gone forever.  And he screams a scream I hope to heaven you never, ever have to hear.  But MP's suggestion would be that, after I prove to Thomas that death is not to be feared (ummm, how?  By walking him through funerals and cemeteries??) I leave him to his own devices in the laundry room??  

Maybe that would be the easy way because I could get my 8 hours of sleep.  But it certainly isn't the way God would treat my child.  And thus, it isn't the way *I* will treat my child.

I know I am being blunt and perhaps offensive, but as the mama of a special needs, autistic child, I hear this garbage all too often.  And it makes me crazy mad every single time.  

"Take his plate away and clean him up. Throwing food in our house meant you weren't hungry enough to eat it. Maybe at your next meal, you'll be hungrier."

The crucial difference, I believe, is in saying this in an attempt to elicit a particular behavior (and that comes from the manipulate, control, and GET-the-outward-results mindset) versus saying this because it simply *is*.... because it's the boundary or the standard. (and that's GBD--setting a reasonable standard and helping them meet the standard if possible)

I did this yesterday... can't even remember exactly what with, but I was doing the If/Then routine with my boys... and I realized:

I'm not stating a fact or setting a boundary here... I'm trying to influence their actions by hanging this over their heads. If they do what I want, I've only gained a temporary convenience, b/c I'm teaching them to be motivated by outward pressure instead of internally. If they don't do what I want, and I follow through, we all lose. I will be enacting the "then" portion of my statement just to make them feel bad (or to maintain my position) for not doing what I wanted, and they will be too upset and focused on the consequence to learn a lesson from it.

[mamahammer]

I will be enacting the "then" portion of my statement just to make them feel bad (or to maintain my position) for not doing what I wanted, and they will be too upset and focused on the consequence to learn a lesson from it.

And thus, it is ineffective and painful.

[SouthPaw]

Let me gently make a comment on the food allergy/disorder issue.

I do see a lot of what you are saying. I know what you are talking about. Someone mentions an issue that is just a little *more* than normal, and someone else says, "well, have you considered X allergy? how's his diet?"

It may look like that person is trying to draw something out to excuse behavior.

In fact, this is just the normal way to diagnose a behavior problem. When I am helping someone train their dog, if they are having X issue (he pees in the house...he growls at dogs)... my first question is always "has he been to the vet? have they checked for X physical problem? is his diet high in wheat?"

It's not because you are just looking for an excuse. It's because, if it IS a medical issue, NO AMOUNT of behavior training OR discipline *can* fix it. So you *have* to ask that question first, even if you actually think the possibility is pretty remote.

I hope that helps you understand why these things are mentioned so often