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Unprepared for Parenting (Ezzos, Pearls, Etc.) *Public* Support and information for those affected by the Ezzos, the Pearls, and other punitive and adversarial methods of child-rearing.
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23. No posts harshly dissecting parenting moments of others since we desire to humbly cultivate a heart attitude of grace and not judgment towards other mamas. We all struggle at times as parents and have much to learn, and GCM's focus is to provide tools and information for each of us to parent more effectively. Posts voicing some frustration regarding choices made by others can be okay, but it needs to be within the overall context of seeking understanding or ideas for better responses in the future.

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Old 02-22-2017, 12:18 PM   #16
forty-two
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Default Re: Need Sheepherding a Child's Heart rebuttals ASAP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerynne View Post
I think this has to be regional. The first place (and I think only place) I ever heard of it was here and I don't know a single person IRL who does it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daina View Post
I've basically faced and met people in leadership in every church I've been to who kind of hold this view.
I'm like Aerynne - I've only heard of the more extreme punitive views online and never IRL. I wonder if, instead of being a regional thing, it's more of the theological thing: that some traditions are theologically/historically more likely to fall into punitive thinking at certain times and in certain places than others .

I know that my tradition (Lutheran) is more likely to fall into antinomianism and Gospel reductionism than other Christian traditions - our beliefs and practices are currently weak in those areas for a lot of reasons, and so those are some of our "besetting sins", our characteristic heresies. But punitive parenting hasn't really made inroads into our congregations - the hard-core punitive parenting stuff contradicts our core theology in ways that pastors notice and reject. But other nasty things slide under the radar because of their surface similarity with our theology, or how they reject the same things we reject - and a *lot* of our churches are infiltrated with them . Other traditions are going to have different core emphases, and punitive parenting is similar enough to some traditions' core theology that it can make serious inroads in those churches. Since you are seeing it everywhere you go, it sounds like your tradition might be one of those.

Fighting your tradition's besetting sins, fighting your tradition's characteristic heresies - it's absolutely hard work . It's a lot easier to fight your tradition's characteristic *outside* enemies - that involves the (kinda fun ) work of pointing out other people's blind spots; it's a lot harder to learn to see your *own* blind spots. But it's *necessary* work - learning to better see other people's blind spots on its own can be too much like pointing out the speck in your brother's eye; learning to see your own is removing the plank from your own eye. Two things that have helped me:

*Reading old books, seeing how my tradition fought off these heresies in the past, as well as getting a fresh perspective on our beliefs, one free of our current blinders. As C.S. Lewis said, on reading old books:
Quote:
Every age has its own outlook. It is especially good at seeing certain truths and specially liable to make certain mistakes. We all, therefore, need the books that will correct the characteristic mistakes of our own period. And that means the old books…. Not, of course, that there is any magic about the past. People were no cleverer then than they are now; they made as many mistakes as we. But not the same mistakes. They will not flatter us in the errors we are already committing; and their own errors, being now open and palpable, will not endanger us. Two heads are better than one, not because either is infallible, but because they are unlikely to go wrong in the same direction. To be sure, the books of the future would be just as good a corrective as the books of the past, but unfortunately we cannot get at them.
*Finding contemporary pastors and theologians that are also fighting these besetting sins and characteristic heresies from *within* my tradition right now. It reinforces that I'm not alone, and they are a good source of support and resources.

and
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daina (02-22-2017)
Old 02-22-2017, 01:39 PM   #17
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Default Re: Need Sheepherding a Child's Heart rebuttals ASAP!

I might agree with you were it not for the fact that Pearl's stuff was recommended in my circles by the deeply SBC mom and the Russian Orthodox priest's wife. I think there is a sin in chosing to use power in the wrong way (but maybe that's because I'm reading a book about how Christians chose to use power in good ways and evil ways right now)
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daina (02-22-2017)
Old 02-22-2017, 02:25 PM   #18
MegMarch
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Default Re: Need Sheepherding a Child's Heart rebuttals ASAP!

FWIW, the SACH followers I know tend towards the non-denominational churches that seem to have come from the Acts 21 Network or are similar in lots of ways. They are people who highly value relationships, clear understandings of authority and responsibility, like ESV translation Bibles. OR they are Southern Baptists.
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Old 03-04-2017, 07:55 AM   #19
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Default Re: Need Sheepherding a Child's Heart rebuttals ASAP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by forty-two View Post
I'm like Aerynne - I've only heard of the more extreme punitive views online and never IRL. I wonder if, instead of being a regional thing, it's more of the theological thing: that some traditions are theologically/historically more likely to fall into punitive thinking at certain times and in certain places than others .

I know that my tradition (Lutheran) is more likely to fall into antinomianism and Gospel reductionism than other Christian traditions - our beliefs and practices are currently weak in those areas for a lot of reasons, and so those are some of our "besetting sins", our characteristic heresies. But punitive parenting hasn't really made inroads into our congregations - the hard-core punitive parenting stuff contradicts our core theology in ways that pastors notice and reject. But other nasty things slide under the radar because of their surface similarity with our theology, or how they reject the same things we reject - and a *lot* of our churches are infiltrated with them . Other traditions are going to have different core emphases, and punitive parenting is similar enough to some traditions' core theology that it can make serious inroads in those churches. Since you are seeing it everywhere you go, it sounds like your tradition might be one of those.
I'm afraid extreme punitive parenting can be found in all denominations. Larry Christenson is a Lutheran pastor (Or was? I wonder if he is still alive...?) and he has written the very "spanking manual" that ruined the first 5 years of my marriage and motherhood. The Christian Family is the name of this book. With a preface by David Wilkerson who is a Pentacostal.

And even Chuck Swindoll has written a really horrible book about child upringing. You and Your Child, IIRC. Isn't he a baptist of some kind? Or Evangelical?

Both books were used at the church we were attending when we were young parents. It was a Full Gospel Church on The Netherlands!

It was a relief when our "Pastor" introduced the video courses and books of James Dobson. Can you believe it, Dobson a relief?
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Old 03-04-2017, 12:07 PM   #20
forty-two
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Default Re: Need Sheepherding a Child's Heart rebuttals ASAP!

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Originally Posted by MariJo7 View Post
I'm afraid extreme punitive parenting can be found in all denominations. Larry Christenson is a Lutheran pastor (Or was? I wonder if he is still alive...?) and he has written the very "spanking manual" that ruined the first 5 years of my marriage and motherhood. The Christian Family is the name of this book. With a preface by David Wilkerson who is a Pentacostal.

And even Chuck Swindoll has written a really horrible book about child upringing. You and Your Child, IIRC. Isn't he a baptist of some kind? Or Evangelical?

Both books were used at the church we were attending when we were young parents. It was a Full Gospel Church on The Netherlands!

It was a relief when our "Pastor" introduced the video courses and books of James Dobson. Can you believe it, Dobson a relief?
I can see Dobson being a relief . Spanking is a practical means to an end for him, not a theologically mandated way of disciplining - it makes a big difference .

I do agree that punitive parenting can infiltrate most any denomination (I've seen a parish in my denomination doing Ezzo, for goodness sake!, and certainly mainstream punitive assumptions can be widely present), and I do think that in addition to particular traditions being more susceptible to some heresies than others, sometimes *all* the traditions in a particular time/place are susceptible to heresies that are prevalent in the culture around them (e.g. Western churches and secularization). And I'm very sorry you were so badly affected by Christenson .

But Christenson himself is an outlier as far as the Lutheran tradition goes. He consciously and on purpose borrowed heavily from outside traditions (charismatic) that many fellow Lutherans believed were incompatible with our core theology (he was the head of the Lutheran Renewal movement, which sought to bring charismatic beliefs and practices into the Lutheran church). He is quoted more in charismatic sources than in Lutheran ones. His book was published by a non-Lutheran publisher and the preface was written by a Pentecostal pastor. It probably could not have passed doctrinal review. And you were taught the book in a charismatic congregation, not a Lutheran one. He's not in any way, shape, or form part of the Lutheran mainstream.

And that was my point wrt the person I was responding to: fighting off heresies that are basically foreign to the mainstream of your tradition is an entirely different thing from fighting off heresies that have become *part* of the mainstream of your tradition. (Although it is very true that what starts out as a fringe-y infiltrator that's foreign to your core theology can, if left unchecked, become stronger and warp and displace your previous core theology and become a central part of your new core theology . A tradition's core theology is *not* static but is being constantly formed and reformed. It takes CONSTANT VIGILANCE to keep your core theology from being pulled away from the Bible and the broad historic orthodox mainstream.) Informal punitive assumptions may be part of the mainstream in most traditions, but formal theological justifications for spanking *aren't*. And that's what the person I was responding to was facing. And it's a lot easier to persuade people that a fringe-y foreign infiltrator is in fact a foreign infiltrator that needs to be rejected, than to persuade people than a well-entrenched and no longer fringe-y or foreign-feeling infiltrator is in fact a foreign infiltrator that needs to be rejected.

But I do agree that traditions aren't static, and core theologies change, and churches and traditions can become susceptible to problems that they used to be inoculated against - usually by changing and moving away from the beliefs and practices that provided the inoculation.
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INTJ: introverted iNtuition with extraverted Thinking
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Mother to:
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Last edited by forty-two; 03-04-2017 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 03-04-2017, 10:12 PM   #21
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Default Re: Need Sheepherding a Child's Heart rebuttals ASAP!

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Anyone ever just feel despair at how deeply entrenched and widespread the ideas of the pearl's and their whole worldview are in Christendom? Especially as a new Christian, when the pastor's and leaders and long-time believers are all telling you that if you don't spank em' young, and spank em' til their will is broken, you don't love your children- it causes so much doubt. Struggling through this. Struggling to have confidence. Struggling with the fear of someday being confronted with "church discipline" for not spanking if my husband goes into ministry.
I've been a Christian and regular church attender for all of my 44 years.

I never heard of any of these books or parenting methods until I came to GCM.

It is largely regional as well as denominational.

I grew up in the north (Wisconsin) and in suburban culture there, spanking is considered a rather ignorant way to try and discipline children. If you threaten a child with a spanking in public, you'll get dirty looks. It's in the same boat as smoking. "Are you really still doing that, given ask the knowledge about how harmful itv is? Come on, grow up."

Growing up 90% of the people I knew were Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Jewish, or Episcopalian. I never met a Baptist person until I was in my 30s and moved to Tennessee. That was a huge culture shock. People openly spank their kids at a park in the suburbs! I was really shocked.
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