I Was Shocked....

[shirelingmum]

one of the mamas in my community group (from church) was talking about how her little guy was walking at 9 months and he wouldn't stop touching everything (natural, right?)...so she said that she just "resorted to pain" to teach him to not touch things ...i was shocked (but not completely because though they practice some natural parenting stuff they are extremely punitive) and didn't even say a word to her after that. I just averted my eyes and started talking to my husband. I didn't even know what to say because I was so sad and hurt that she would actually resort to doing that in the first place...but even moreso to "get her point across" to an innocent little boy who doesn't even understand why she's doing what she's doing...he just knows that he wants to explore and mommy keeps flicking, slapping and whatever else she feels is okay. I am learning not to use threats or swats myself...so I think stuff like this just catches me off guard...especially in Christian circles. I. don't. get. it.
should i have said anything? she's slightly older than i am.
from what i have observed i believe she actually uses training techniques from TTUAC...which makes me even more for her.

[Psyche]

[forty-two]

. I never know what to say in the moment, either . I want to say *something* - I so hate the idea that parenting and teaching via pain is necessary or good - yet I need to say it in such a way that I am not trying to cause the punitive parent pain myself in my effort to teach her .

All my knee-jerk responses - oh, how can you hit an innocent baby!? How horrible for him - are basically me trying to make the punitive parent feel bad so they will realize the badness of their actions and stop doing them . Just like they are causing their child pain so that they will stop doing bad actions . Awfully hypocritical of me - especially since my go-to argument against punitive parenting of kids is to point out how we adults feel when someone tries to "teach" us by making our bad behavior painful .

I've been spending the past 10-15 min trying to brainstorm better ways to respond, using GBD responses to my dc as a template. This is what's I've come up with so far:

" Yeah, I got so frustrated when I was pulling baby J from behind the computer for the tenth time in ten minutes . I can't blame him for exploring his environment, of course - that's what babies are supposed to do - but it definitely got to be a bit much. So I got proactive about it - instead of constantly hauling him back, I got a big box and blocked access to the computer. That way he could explore, but without getting into places I'd rather he didn't . Win-win for both of us ."

I do better when I think things through ahead of time - can come up with a useful template that I can easily apply in the moment .

[Mommainrwanda]

I've ended up saying things like, "Oh! I want the Urchin to enjoy exploring so I just try to put up anything that I don't want her to touch. It's easier than following her around and telling her what NOT to touch." Then laugh and change the subject.

We have some friends who use spankings a. lot. and they just drop it into conversation with their son, like, "Oh is your baby doll gettin' into trouble? You'd better give that baby a spanking!" When they tried to include the Urchin in that type of "game" I had to finally speak up and say, "She doesn't know what spankings are." But it was pretty weird.

[AngelaVA]

I am always shocked and don't say much either. Sometimes I wonder what would happen if instead of polite silence
people would actually say, "That's a really awful thing to do to your child"

[ArmsOfLove]

After trying to come up with some perfect response for situations like this I have finally realized that the best, most honest response to things like this is, "How very sad." Though I have also said, "How horrible."

If they want to know more they will ask. If they don't, they at least know that I'm not in agreement with their choice. I found this to be a better approach than silence because that was sometimes assumed to mean agreement Or, to others, a reason to take offense. IOW, not saying anything didn't at all hide how I felt about it

[J3K]

I've been known to gasp , "OUCH! Poor baby. That's rough. "

Or direct it to the mom , "Aw , I'm sorry Mama , I too have resorted to not so nice things when I'm at my wit's end. I always feel badly that I've hurt my child too." Usually followed with "You MEANT to hit her ? Oh. Um. Awkward. I don't know what to say to that."

[klpmommy]

What is really sad is that when spanking is your only real tool, you don't know what to do if you can't/shouldn't spank. You end up spanking harder, too young, too old, for things that shouldn't be "punished" no matter what your beliefs on punitive parenting. It's so heartbreaking to me b/c most of the time these parents believe they are doing what is right and best and really just lack tools beyond spanking.....so they use what they know.

[MaryPoppinsIAin't]

Originally Posted by Mommainrwanda

We have some friends who use spankings a. lot. and they just drop it into conversation with their son, like, "Oh is your baby doll gettin' into trouble? You'd better give that baby a spanking!" When they tried to include the Urchin in that type of "game" I had to finally speak up and say, "She doesn't know what spankings are." But it was pretty weird.

My MIL was saying things like that to my son when he was barely four months old, sitting in his swing. "Oh, is that toy not minding you? Well you better spank that toy! Yes! You give that toy a good spanking!!"

I had to explain to my 70 yr old MIL that a) all babies play by smacking things, it's a learning deal, and b) we don't plan to spank and would she please not teach him that word.

[Cherish]

embarrassed to say that more than once I've been Veeeeeeery Verrrrrrry tempted to reach over and flick/slap/swat the friend and say, "Bad mommy! No hit the baby! Only gentle touches, please."
In my mind, that goes over well and the parent is shocked into changing their behavior because they didn't like it for themselves. In real life, I'd probably be arrested.

In reality I do what AOL does, and just say something similar. I've said, "I'm so very unhappy that you do that." or "That hurts me, to hear you do that." Or "That's really distressing/upsetting." Crystal's answers are more edited and concise than mine, though!

[beansmama]

I usually try to stick to groaning with sad eyes, saying "awww" in a sad tone, or saying "oh no" in a sad tone. That allows the person to realize I don't agree and think it's sad, while not berating them or making them uncomfortable with a judgmental statement. It leave the door open for dialog them without making them have to defend themselves.

99 percent of the time they don't say anything back, because they don't really care I don't agree with them.

I have a friend who continues to laugh in front of me every time her daughter pretends to spank herself, and I just always stand there saying, "oh no" in a sad tone. It's happened a half dozen times. She knows I don't believe in spanking anymore, but doesn't care and laughs anyway. It simply doesn't bother her.

[gentlemommy]

Originally Posted by forty-two

All my knee-jerk responses - oh, how can you hit an innocent baby!? How horrible for him - are basically me trying to make the punitive parent feel bad so they will realize the badness of their actions and stop doing them . Just like they are causing their child pain so that they will stop doing bad actions . Awfully hypocritical of me -

ITTA. Saying, "How horrible" has a tendency to be very shaming and also effectively shuts down relationship. Which is exactly how the parent is treating their child. Definitely not something I want to model.

I think the most honest, yet compassionate response, would be something along the lines of, "It is really hard being a parent. Toddlers can be soooooo exhausting. I personally disagree with using physical pain to teach. What is it like for you?"

That tends to invite dialogue and allows you to be honest without shaming.

[marbles]

I'm thinking about the various responses here, and I'm wondering about this idea that it's punitive to tell the parent how you feel about hitting. I do think it can be done in a kind way. I mean, when Lucca does something that can hurt someone, I tell her that. I don't yell it (try not to) or shame her for it, but I do tell her that it was not nice, or that it hurt. It's just explaining the situation. Obviously, "what a horrible thing to do to such a poor little child I can't believe you would do that!" could be hurtful but simply letting it be known that it distresses you or that you are sad for the child isn't, I don't think, the same. I mean, I've been in a group where a little boy was being slapped on the hand repeatedly for aggression. If anyone was paying any attention to me at all, it was quite clear by the look on my face and my rush to block Lucca from seeing it (or reassure her after she saw it) that it bothered me. I think it is ok to step in and let it be known, "i don't agree with this" I saw a woman hit a puppy with a big stick once and I audibly 'ed was that wrong?
I tend to sound like I'm issuing the right way to do things, but I'm honestly trying to nail this down. Thoughts?

[gentlemommy]

Originally Posted by marbles

I'm thinking about the various responses here, and I'm wondering about this idea that it's punitive to tell the parent how you feel about hitting.

I don't think it's punitive to tell them how you feel about it. I *do* think it can be punitive and shaming to say, "Oh, how horrible!" or "That's so sad!"

Obviously, "what a horrible thing to do to such a poor little child I can't believe you would do that!" could be hurtful but simply letting it be known that it distresses you or that you are sad for the child isn't, I don't think, the same.

I don't think letting it be known that it distresses you is necessarily wrong or shaming or punitive either. I think there's a way to communicate that directly and respectfully. Saying you feel sad for the child seems like kind of a passive-agressive thing to say to their parent. I also think it shuts down the relationship. If I shared that I extended breastfed or coslept and they said, "Oh, I feel really sad for your child." Well, okay, that doesn't really lead anywhere good. I would much rather they say, "I disagree with extended bfing and cosleeping. I do not think it's best for the child." and then I can either talk about it more or not, but there was no shaming or p/a in the interaction. It seems much more respectful than if they had said, "Oh, how horrible." Or "Oh, how very sad."

[Elyse221]

Originally Posted by gentlemommy

I don't think it's punitive to tell them how you feel about it. I *do* think it can be punitive and shaming to say, "Oh, how horrible!" or "That's so sad!"

What if this is your honest reaction, though? I want to show grace to others who do things I disagree with--but I don't think an honest, "That makes me sad to hear that," lacks grace. It's not like saying, "You're bad for doing that. I don't want to be around those who do such things." That would be punitive and shaming.

I think because hitting kids is soooo culturally accepted (and expected), it loses its shock value after awhile. But I don't think it's wrong to react with shock when that is what is felt.