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Old 05-06-2018, 05:02 AM   #1
Peaceful Meadows
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Default Spin off: How Charlotte Mason Differs Frim Classical Education

In the Charlotte Mason thread some one mentioned that Charlotte Mason Education and Classical Education can go hand in hand. I know that there are differing opinions on that. Anyway, I wanted to post this link but didn’t want to “bunny trail” that thread.

Charlotte Mason Method vs. Classical Approach
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Old 05-06-2018, 06:26 AM   #2
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Default Re: Spin off: How Charlotte Mason Differs Frim Classical Education

subbing to come back later when I've got time - I've been thinking about this a LOT lately, especially how these ideas intersect with teaching the arts.

Just quickly, though, I think people tend to get hung up on the first stage of the Trivium and fail to progress out of it into the last stage - rhetoric. Which in my mind is so much of what the end of that article was alluding to.
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Old 05-06-2018, 02:06 PM   #3
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Default Re: Spin off: How Charlotte Mason Differs Frim Classical Education

I want to be able to find this latter when I am not starting dinner and baths.

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Old 05-06-2018, 02:56 PM   #4
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Default Re: Spin off: How Charlotte Mason Differs Frim Classical Education

Subbing to come back when I have time.

Random quick thoughts: not all classical is the trivium-as-stages kind (although that is probably the most common version right now). That's a more contemporary interpretation of classical; some older versions tend to treat the trivium as *subjects*.

Also, wrt the fact-food versus idea-food distinction, the wisdom-and-virtue kind of classical that I'm aiming for would consider that a both/and, not an either/or. You can't separate facts from ideas, and you shouldn't try; neither is more important than the other. Ideas inhere in concrete facts; facts embody immaterial ideas. Facts separated from ideas are meaningless factoids with no sense of "why care", of what the facts *mean*; and ideas separated from facts become mere truthiness instead of *truth*.

Wisdom-and-virtue classical considers ideas just as important and vital as that article does; but it also values learning specific bodies of knowledge more than that article does.
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Old 05-07-2018, 10:38 AM   #5
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Default Re: Spin off: How Charlotte Mason Differs Frim Classical Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by forty-two View Post

Random quick thoughts: not all classical is the trivium-as-stages kind (although that is probably the most common version right now). That's a more contemporary interpretation of classical; some older versions tend to treat the trivium as *subjects*.

I've heard this before, but the only books I've read are the trivium-as-stages. (Dorothy Sayers, WTM, etc.) Could you expand on this? or suggest some books to read?
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Old 05-08-2018, 09:36 PM   #6
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Default Re: Spin off: How Charlotte Mason Differs Frim Classical Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViolaMum View Post
I've heard this before, but the only books I've read are the trivium-as-stages. (Dorothy Sayers, WTM, etc.) Could you expand on this? or suggest some books to read?
Will attempt to . Alternatives to trivium-as-stages neoclassical (often described as some kind of traditional classical ed):
*latin-centered classical ed ("Latin-Centered Curriculum", by Andrew Campbell; "Climbing Parnassus", by Tracy Lee Simmons). Campbell's version focuses on Latin, math, and composition.
*Memoria Press's approach leans more latin-centered than neoclassical, and they have a lot of free articles to read: https://www.memoriapress.com/articles/
*Circe Institute aims for a wisdom and virtue kind of traditional classical ed, and they have a lot of good blog posts and podcasts: https://www.circeinstitute.org/

Generally speaking, proponents of some kind of traditional classical ed are pretty disenchanted with modern education and the modern approach to living life, and are looking to the wisdom of the past to find better alternatives to education and living life. Neoclassical, to paint with a broad brush, is more about incorporating the wisdom of the past in order to better implement a modern education, while traditional classical ed is rejecting much or all of modern education, and is trying to achieve entirely different goals than modern education. One similarity between CM and traditional classical ed is seeing education as encompassing all of life, that the point of education is to equip students to live a good life.

~*~

Expanding on it a bit, the idea of the trivium as subjects - or arts - means that grammar, etc., isn't just a way of learning that can be applied to any subject. Grammar study isn't about building certain habits of mind that are unconnected to any particular content. Rather, grammar-as-art means that there's grammar *content* as well as grammar habits of mind, and it's learning the *content* that builds the habits of mind. You can't separate ideas from facts and you can't separate habits of mind from specific content.

And there's a lot more to grammar (and logic and rhetoric) than you might think. Grammar isn't just about pointless, unconnected to reality rules; rather, grammar study is about how our words connect to reality.

Grammar is the art of describing reality with precision and accuracy. All those persnickety grammar rules about transitive versus intransitive verbs and such are rooted in reality, and making sure our speech reflects those rooted-in-reality differences. Learning grammar means learning to see reality with more precise eyes, and learning how to put our thoughts into words that say just what we mean them to say. One's grammar study both shapes and reflects one's philosophy.


And changes in how people see reality, and what sort of connection to reality our words have, and what sort of order is embedded in reality - all those things are reflected in how we teach grammar and logic, and all those things are *taught* when we teach grammar and logic.

(Hopefully this makes sense - I'm barely keeping my eyes open .)
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:36 PM   #7
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Default Re: Spin off: How Charlotte Mason Differs Frim Classical Education

Going back to the article posted in the OP. The author specifies that she's not talking about "an education based on classic, language-rich books that hold up high virtues", as that's a "classical" thing that is also a CM thing. Rather, she specifies that by classical she means "the classical approach that is based on the trivium (the three stages of learners) and that emphasizes memorizing and outlining facts."

While that sort of classical ed definitely *can* be practiced in the "carefully curated and organized fact-food" way, I don't think it's inherent to the method . I mean, "The Well-Trained Mind" definitely hits all three of those points - trivium-as-stages, memorization, and outlining - yet it's not nearly as fact-food-focused as people often assume. For all that Susan Wise Bauer has the deserved rep as a very parts-to-whole kind of teacher, she still teaches those parts in context. It rather surprised me, honestly, just how story-focused she is in the grammar stage. Plenty of memorization, yes, but almost always in context. I use SWB's grammar-stage writing curricula (Writing With Ease), and it is *very* story-centric - she's definitely keeping the facts embedded in their animating ideas. And she definitely focuses on outlining in the logic stage, but not in a "separating facts from ideas" way .

Now, SWB's approach to narration is different from CM's: SWB focuses on summarizing, and my understand of CM narration is that it's more retelling, or in any case isn't focused on summarizing the main ideas. Outlining in WTM is an extension of the summarizing that was learned in the grammar stage - it's summarizing each of the various idea-chunks of a larger passage, and using the outline form to show how the ideas and facts relate to each other. But it's still wrestling with *ideas*, and the facts that illustrate and embody them.

I do think there are important differences between WTM-style classical and CM, but I think that WTM, at least, isn't nearly as fact-food-centric as people assume. (Although even people who follow WTM sometimes miss it, so I get how it got its rep.)


Also, wrt differences, I have the impression that classical in general places the role of teacher higher than CM - that students better understand a text when a good teacher explains how it fits into the tradition, which my understanding of CM is that it's more in favor of not getting between the student and the book - that students make better, more lasting connections when they come up with them themselves. Classical values the teacher's role in helping show how the important points of the book connect to what the students already know and love. I have the impression that *particular* connections matter more to classical than CM - that CM isn't too fussed about *which* ideas students connect with from the generous feast placed before them, while classical ed wants to connect students with the ongoing Great Conversation, with "the best that's been thought and said", and some ideas matter more than others in doing that. I think that classical ed might value *specific* facts and *specific* ideas more than CM does .

~*~

WRT wisdom-and-virtue classical (which relates to the article's "an education based on classic, language-rich books that hold up high virtues" that shares an affinity with CM), a good book in that vein is "Norms and Nobility, by David Hicks, Here's an article he wrote recently, "Is Classical Education Still Possible?" that gives a decent picture of what goes into classical ed as he pictures it. It's a very life-forming, paideia sort of education.

On the WTM forums, people often pair "Norms and Nobility" with "The Abolition of Man", by C.S. Lewis (which diagnoses the problem), and "Leisure as the Basis of Culture", by Josef Pieper (which provides a philosophical answer), with N&N providing the "what does it mean to educate like this" answer.
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