My least favorite quote of the week from Keven Leman

[mokamoto]

Originally Posted by SouthPaw

Huh, smells like a cow patty in here...

I'm puzzled. What did you mean SouthPaw? Are you agreeing with the OP?

[jandjmommy]

Originally Posted by ShiriChayim

A 3yo really doesn't have the developmental maturity to intentionally manipulate anyone, so I would really have to disagree with you there. I've dealt with this with my own kids, and I know that especially in those preschool years transitions are really hard, and the natural inclination is to want to cling to mom. I work with all of my children to have the confidence to go into class knowing they will have fun and I will be back, and I also transition them slowly to be able to do it. But it's certainly not manipulative.

Is it the word "manipulative" that people are taking issue with? It does connote bad intent. "Handle" is a synonym--maybe that would be a less volatile word:
Entry Word: handle
Function: verb
Meaning: 1 to deal with (something) usually skillfully or efficiently <as host of a live TV talk show, she must handle any situation that comes up>
Synonyms contend (with), cope (with), grapple (with), manage, maneuver, manipulate, negotiate, swing, treat

I don't think it has to be intentional -- there are adults who "handle" situations who are not consciously aware of their method. Think of a baby who throws his spoon 100 times and watches Mommy pick it up 100 times. There is a benefit to the action: attention. Obviously the baby does not have a master plan to irritate his mom; likewise, kids who "act" shy (not talking about rare truly shy people) get the benefit of attention though they didn't consciously set out to achieve that goal.

Originally Posted by Heather Micaela

Then you are just blessed with kids that are not shy. I have 5 kids. Of the 4 that speak 2 are shy. And though all have been taught to be friendly, one will just act like she didn't hear so it does NOT look rude if someone says hello. If she does make eye contact she says hi almost inaudably and then looks away. The other will actually frown . Meanwhile the 2yo is willing to have the stranger pick her up and cart her off And my ds knows the name and age of every kid in the park before we leave. And I am pretty sure the youngest is outgoing because the shy acted shy since birth and the outgoing acted like him. They can learn skills and confidence and I avoid labeling my kids as shy, but I still let them be who they are.

That being said I do encourage my child to reach out to others. I have even been willing to go up to the girls on park day and introduce her to them for her and get her started in a game. She would rather sit in her chair and complain she was bored. Her loss. I am not sure what she would be "manipulating" though - to be more bored?


I was a preschool teacher. YES the kids warm up and have fun after mom leaves. But that does not make their desire to stay with mom any less real

I don't know about "blessed" --as you mentioned, unmitigated friendliness has its own perils, and I don't think anyone with a shy kid is conversely cursed. "They can learn skills and confidence and I avoid labeling my kids as shy, but I still let them be who they are." I agree fully with this, and perhaps my agreement with Leman comes from observing that many kids who act "shy" are responding to how their parents deal with perceived personality traits and (unwittingly) encourage shyness. My little cousin "hates crowds" is "shy" and "needs time to warm up" according to his parents but magically when I bowl him over with hugs and attention the second I see him (2x a year at most) he doesn't seem bothered at all.

[Apple-Saucy]

Originally Posted by mokamoto

I'm puzzled. What did you mean SouthPaw? Are you agreeing with the OP?

No...she's calling what Leman said a pile of cow poop.

[ShiriChayim]

Small children are still learning and experiencing the hows and whys of the world around them, they are learning about how they relate to the world and how the world relates to them. Each child is an individual, they have their own personalities, preferences, and are in their own place of learning. That's why assigning positive intent is so important to a child's actions, and to work them through different situations, not just with our own children but others as well. It's just icky to assume that a child is acting shy for any reason other than that's how they're feeling at that moment.

On a side note, I have very big feelings about requiring a child who is uncomfortable to talk to or interact with people that they don't know. That's just a big safety issue to me, I do NOT want my child to learn or normalize pushing past that feeling of uneasiness to be "polite" or "nice", I want them to feel confident in saying, "I don't feel safe right now."

[erinee]

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[BHope]

These kinds of broad sweeping prejudices (shy=manipulative) just make me feel heart sick. My middle daughter is painfully shy. She's also the most gracious, caring, unselfish child you'll ever have the pleasure of knowing.

[jenn3514]

Wow. I usually agree with most of what he says, but this is so wrong. I remember as a child wanting to say things to people or to go up to them and play, but being frozen by fear. I eventually got better with it, but still am not the one to start a conversation.

Originally Posted by jandjmommy

My little cousin "hates crowds" is "shy" and "needs time to warm up" according to his parents but magically when I bowl him over with hugs and attention the second I see him (2x a year at most) he doesn't seem bothered at all.

You could say the same about my youngest. And if someone tries to bowl her over with touches or attention, she will either freeze right up (people have described it as the deer in the headlights look) or walk away and studiously avoid them for the remainder of her time with them. You will often find her with those who will ignore the fact that she isn't talking, but treat her as though she is a non-shy child- without invading her space.
I think the situation you described is not a 'shy' child, simply one who wants to see whats going on before they jump in to it.

[WanderingJuniper]

My little cousin "hates crowds" is "shy" and "needs time to warm up" according to his parents but magically when I bowl him over with hugs and attention the second I see him (2x a year at most) he doesn't seem bothered at all.

My middle child is all of those things and she wouldn't seem bothered but I can tell you she is. She gets this look on her face that only those who really know her know is her withdrawing protective face. She is coping. She will tell me later, "Mom, I didn't like when Aunt B picked me up and wouldn't stop asking me questions." Aunt B would never know it bothered Bird and Bird is too sensitive to others feelings to speak up about it at the time.

I disagree with Leman on this one. His statement screams of lack of understanding of what it is to be introverted. And his suggestion on how to handle it just violates the child's self awareness.

[Maggie]

Originally Posted by TwoKids

I'm shy out of introvertedness. Really, if someone had assigned such negative intent to my shyness as a child, I would've seen it for what it was, one more place where adults were wrong about me.

For my sister, though, she was shy out of self-consciousness and sensitivity and never wanting to take a chance on anyone thinking she did the wrong thing. For someone to assign negative intent to THAT would have seriously damaged her. I could see that leading to downright social phobia for her.

Thank you for posting this. I think my DD's shyness is kind of like your sister's. I get annoyed by her shyness sometimes, but I try to honor it.

I think Kevin Leman is being a jerk in this area (hopefully inadvertently), but he's very ignorant on the subject of shyness, ESPECIALLY being that he's an extrovert, and someone should have called him on it.

Think of a baby who throws his spoon 100 times and watches Mommy pick it up 100 times. There is a benefit to the action: attention. Obviously the baby does not have a master plan to irritate his mom; likewise, kids who "act" shy (not talking about rare truly shy people) get the benefit of attention though they didn't consciously set out to achieve that goal.

I don't think a baby is doing that for attention. I think he/she is learning about gravity and maybe just wanting to play with Mommy. Maybe the latter is what you mean, but that is in no way manipulative. I thinking using shyness is pretty rare, especially in children.

[saturnfire16]

Originally Posted by jandjmommy

While I acknowledge that there are naturally shy children -- and adults -- I agree with Leman that for most kids shyness is in fact a form of manipulation to gain attention -- which is counterintuitive as truly shy people would do just about anything to deflect attention from themselves.
I see this in action many times every Sunday I teach bible class for 3 yr olds -- the kid(s) hiding behind Mom's skirt while she excuses him/peels him off her leg with an "Oh, he's shy" disclaimer. Of course once Mom is gone he's friendly and outgoing as can be -- it's just a relationship dynamic that the mom causes/plays into.
From the get go we taught our kids to respond when someone spoke to them; e.g., cashier at a store says, "Hello there!" and I expect my kids to say "Hello!" back with eye contact and a smile (much modeling and suggesting words they could say back to someone.)
If someone accuses one of my kids as being "shy" my kids understand that is a "nice" (or passive aggressive--depending on the intent of the adult) way to say they're being rude. Of course we want our children to be polite, to be socialized in the true sense of the word. And part of that -- getting along in society -- is interacting with people whether you really love to or not.

If a child is in fact manipulating anyone, it is the parent's fault. A child whose needs are met with a simple expression of them has no need to manipulate their parents to get their needs met. If the parent is prying them off their legs and then abandoning them when they have expressed the need to be with their parent, then the parent is not meeting the child's need. So, then yes, the child will naturally develop self-protecting mechanisms to try to get their need met.

[Heather Micaela]

Originally Posted by jandjmommy

Is it the word "manipulative" that people are taking issue with? It does connote bad intent. "Handle" is a synonym--maybe that would be a less volatile word:
Entry Word: handle
Function: verb
Meaning: 1 to deal with (something) usually skillfully or efficiently <as host of a live TV talk show, she must handle any situation that comes up>
Synonyms contend (with), cope (with), grapple (with), manage, maneuver, manipulate, negotiate, swing, treat

I don't think it has to be intentional -- there are adults who "handle" situations who are not consciously aware of their method. Think of a baby who throws his spoon 100 times and watches Mommy pick it up 100 times. There is a benefit to the action: attention. Obviously the baby does not have a master plan to irritate his mom; likewise, kids who "act" shy (not talking about rare truly shy people) get the benefit of attention though they didn't consciously set out to achieve that goal.

First - "getting attention" is not a bad thing and most people and children want it and get it in healthy ways. Most people do not want negative attention. So unless a child gets little attention at all, they will not resort to acting shy and pretending they do not want attention. Because the chances are, people will believe them and they will be left alone.

I also have a problem with you saying that truly shy people are rare. Where are you getting these statistics? What studies have you read that details the difference between the "truly shy" and the fakers?

I don't know about "blessed" --as you mentioned, unmitigated friendliness has its own perils, and I don't think anyone with a shy kid is conversely cursed.

You are assuming more than I said in this word. I am blessed with all my children, the shy, the outgoing, the wild, the sensitive, the ones with learning disabilites. All I meant is "you must just have outgoing children then".

"They can learn skills and confidence and I avoid labeling my kids as shy, but I still let them be who they are." I agree fully with this, and perhaps my agreement with Leman comes from observing that many kids who act "shy" are responding to how their parents deal with perceived personality traits and (unwittingly) encourage shyness. My little cousin "hates crowds" is "shy" and "needs time to warm up" according to his parents but magically when I bowl him over with hugs and attention the second I see him (2x a year at most) he doesn't seem bothered at all.

Maybe he is bothered. Maybe since you approach him, he is not anxious. Maybe the fact that you are family and see him more often means he is not shy with you. That does not mean his shyness is a result of coddling by the parents.

Originally Posted by ShiriChayim

On a side note, I have very big feelings about requiring a child who is uncomfortable to talk to or interact with people that they don't know. That's just a big safety issue to me, I do NOT want my child to learn or normalize pushing past that feeling of uneasiness to be "polite" or "nice", I want them to feel confident in saying, "I don't feel safe right now."

Yes they need this safety mechanism