Gentle Christian Mothers Community
 
Random Quotes from Wise Mamas

~* Please help keep GCM free by using our
Amazon.com affiliate link. Thank you! *~


Go Back   Gentle Christian Mothers Community > Specific Issues > Gentle Discipline *Public*
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Gentle Discipline *Public* A public forum.
GCM Webpage: Gentle Discipline

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-19-2018, 12:52 PM   #1
gerberadaisy
Rose Trellis
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,274
gerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond repute
Default refusing to do chores

I used the search button but either no one has ever asked about this before or the search button is broken (it also told me that SEARS wasn't available in search in the whole forum so I think maybe it's the latter).

Anyway, my almost 7-year-old is refusing to finish his chores. We have a party to go to tonight at the science center & I told him he had to be ready to go & have his chores done at 5:00. He is busy playing.

One of the things I need to get done before we go is the floor. I've told him I would be doing that & he needed to get anything he didn't want in the trash or put up for a while, off the floor. Still there. I'm even giving him extra time by being here & writing this post so he has no excuse. His chores are half done but he expects us to "help" him with the rest which is code for "you do my chores for me while I play with whatever I manage to pick up for 5 minutes before I get distracted & pick up something new to play with for 5 minutes while I throw the first thing back on the floor". I'm at my wits end. This party is not for me. It's for him. I don't want to be mean but I also want my house to be reasonably clean.

Just venting I suppose, because this is maddening.
gerberadaisy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2018, 01:35 PM   #2
Aerynne
Rose Garden
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 23,332
Aerynne has a reputation beyond reputeAerynne has a reputation beyond reputeAerynne has a reputation beyond reputeAerynne has a reputation beyond reputeAerynne has a reputation beyond reputeAerynne has a reputation beyond reputeAerynne has a reputation beyond reputeAerynne has a reputation beyond reputeAerynne has a reputation beyond reputeAerynne has a reputation beyond reputeAerynne has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: refusing to do chores

I think he needs to skip the party if he’s not done by the time you would need to leave. If he finishes by, for example, 6, then he can be an hour late to the party. Be sure to let him know “Now is when we would need to leave if we are going to be on time. Since you are not done, we are not leaving. If you finish we can go, but we will be late.” If going late isn’t an option, like if you are riding with someone, then if he isn’t done in time he misses it. It might not help for today, but for next time he will know you mean business. If you let him go, he will know he can get away with not doing them.
__________________
Erin

born of water and of the Spirit 4/96
married 5/02
Mama to:
B '04
Nugs '07
Kins born at home '10
Bunny born at home Dec '12

Baby Boo born at home July 2017
Aerynne is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Aerynne For This Useful Post:
bananacake (10-19-2018), everybody's mother (10-21-2018), gerberadaisy (10-19-2018), graciousmomma (10-22-2018), Llee (10-23-2018), MegMarch (10-19-2018), Quiteria (10-19-2018)
Old 10-19-2018, 01:41 PM   #3
mamacat
Rose Garden
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,050
mamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: refusing to do chores

At his age I would set him up for success and not throw it out there that it needs to be done but give a specific directive. Stop playing now and come and put all of your things on the floor in this basket . Then another directive to take them in his room and put them where they belong so he will be ready to go to his party
__________________
~Catherine~

Mama to 5:

C
W
C
J
S
And Grandma to 3:

A ,K and baby C
mamacat is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to mamacat For This Useful Post:
CelticJourney (10-19-2018), everybody's mother (10-21-2018), gerberadaisy (10-19-2018), MegMarch (10-19-2018), Quiteria (10-19-2018), rjy9343 (10-19-2018), Soliloquy (10-21-2018), Victorious (10-23-2018), Virginia (10-23-2018)
Old 10-19-2018, 02:01 PM   #4
gerberadaisy
Rose Trellis
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,274
gerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: refusing to do chores

He finally finished at the eleventh hour & were leaving in a few minutes. Its 45 minutes away so going for half an hour wouldnt have been an option. We have an activity planned for Sunday where I could have done that with as its not as far and all day.

I do my best to set him up for success but when I do, he often plays around too much. I have things that need to get done as well. I do not have time to help him pick up his toys all day long if he wants to eat, have clean clothes, etc. I do little races with him when it seems appropriate & we accomplish things together but sometimes that is not feasible to do or he expects me to do his chores for him. If this kid can spend hours o building elaborate machines & games, he can certainly take 30 minutes or less to do a few chores.
gerberadaisy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2018, 02:49 PM   #5
MegMarch
Rose Garden
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,952
MegMarch has a reputation beyond reputeMegMarch has a reputation beyond reputeMegMarch has a reputation beyond reputeMegMarch has a reputation beyond reputeMegMarch has a reputation beyond reputeMegMarch has a reputation beyond reputeMegMarch has a reputation beyond reputeMegMarch has a reputation beyond reputeMegMarch has a reputation beyond reputeMegMarch has a reputation beyond reputeMegMarch has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: refusing to do chores

My DD is turning 8 in a few weeks. I've found that she responds best to written lists. Ideally she makes them herself. She likes that. But it can be a delay tactic too Anyway, they have to be pretty detailed or she gets overwhelmed. But something like:

Pick up everything by the nightstand side of the bed
Pick up everything on the other side
Pick up everything between the bed and closet
Tidy bed
Laundry to hamper
Shoes in she organizer

And sometimes I ask her to take my phone and take a picture so we can see what she's missed and needs to do again. I have her do that to give her a chance to look with fresh eyes before I give my feedback.

As for stuff like you posted, missing activities happens here, unless it ends up punishing her friends. So a playdate we won't miss, but we would miss a party where she'd be less missed. And if I have to do a lot of the work, I will usually put her stuff in my closet for a few months. I let her know that if I have to do the work, it goes up because most days I have enough of my own work to do.
MegMarch is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to MegMarch For This Useful Post:
CelticJourney (10-19-2018), CJNeeley (10-27-2018), gerberadaisy (10-19-2018), homesteadmama (10-19-2018), Llee (10-23-2018), mamacat (10-19-2018), Virginia (10-23-2018)
Old 10-19-2018, 03:57 PM   #6
mamacat
Rose Garden
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,050
mamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: refusing to do chores

He is still very young. And that can mean not mature enough for our expectations sometimes or how we would like them to be at a certain age. Even at age 10ish I remember having to be very specific with my kids about clean up projects unless it was more broad like vacuum the carpet in the family room or feed the dog his scoop of fod. Is he the kind of processor like Meg described that would do better with a list?glad he got it done in time.
__________________
~Catherine~

Mama to 5:

C
W
C
J
S
And Grandma to 3:

A ,K and baby C
mamacat is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to mamacat For This Useful Post:
CelticJourney (10-19-2018), gerberadaisy (10-19-2018), Soliloquy (10-21-2018)
Old 10-19-2018, 04:38 PM   #7
Katigre
Rose Garden
 
Why thank you, it is naturally blue...
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 20,699
Katigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: refusing to do chores

I do "if then" for chores, they can't move on to the next fun thing until the chore is done. We start this when they're 3-4, and it is very effective in making the boundary that chores aren't optional. Now all my kids have become pretty good at getting their work done, bc they don't want to miss doing the fun thing that comes next.
__________________
DS (12) DD (9.5) DS (6) DD (4)
Married to my for 15 years

Posting from my phone, pardon the auto correct typos
Katigre is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Katigre For This Useful Post:
gerberadaisy (10-19-2018), Llee (10-23-2018), mamacat (10-19-2018)
Old 10-19-2018, 05:07 PM   #8
MegMarch
Rose Garden
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,952
MegMarch has a reputation beyond reputeMegMarch has a reputation beyond reputeMegMarch has a reputation beyond reputeMegMarch has a reputation beyond reputeMegMarch has a reputation beyond reputeMegMarch has a reputation beyond reputeMegMarch has a reputation beyond reputeMegMarch has a reputation beyond reputeMegMarch has a reputation beyond reputeMegMarch has a reputation beyond reputeMegMarch has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: refusing to do chores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katigre View Post
I do "if then" for chores, they can't move on to the next fun thing until the chore is done. We start this when they're 3-4, and it is very effective in making the boundary that chores aren't optional. Now all my kids have become pretty good at getting their work done, bc they don't want to miss doing the fun thing that comes next.
Any ideas how to handle it when they don't care or they are not doing stuff for so long that the next thing is food or bed? Mine is often fine with missing out on fun
MegMarch is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to MegMarch For This Useful Post:
gerberadaisy (10-19-2018), lavenlove (10-20-2018), passthemanna (10-19-2018), Soliloquy (10-21-2018)
Old 10-19-2018, 05:35 PM   #9
Katigre
Rose Garden
 
Why thank you, it is naturally blue...
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 20,699
Katigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: refusing to do chores

Hmmm... Not sure on that. I think it depends on what matters to the child. We also really a lot about being a team as a family, and that we do chores to contribute to the house. Does the child understand why the chore matters?
__________________
DS (12) DD (9.5) DS (6) DD (4)
Married to my for 15 years

Posting from my phone, pardon the auto correct typos
Katigre is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Katigre For This Useful Post:
gerberadaisy (10-19-2018)
Old 10-19-2018, 06:23 PM   #10
passthemanna
Rose Trellis
 
"...to do justice,and to love kindness,and to walk humbly with your God..." Mi 6:8
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idaho
Posts: 3,252
passthemanna has a reputation beyond reputepassthemanna has a reputation beyond reputepassthemanna has a reputation beyond reputepassthemanna has a reputation beyond reputepassthemanna has a reputation beyond reputepassthemanna has a reputation beyond reputepassthemanna has a reputation beyond reputepassthemanna has a reputation beyond reputepassthemanna has a reputation beyond reputepassthemanna has a reputation beyond reputepassthemanna has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: refusing to do chores

Quote:
Originally Posted by MegMarch View Post
Any ideas how to handle it when they don't care or they are not doing stuff for so long that the next thing is food or bed? Mine is often fine with missing out on fun
This is my 7 year old dd
__________________
Teri
Christ-loving
It takes two
J- gentleman, Minecraft maniac, bookworm 09/08
R- Singer-artist extrordonaire 01/11
S- Goofball man-boy. He built everyting 12/13
Photographer at Grace and Gratitude by TLC
https://www.facebook.com/GraceandGra...TLC/?ref=br_rs
passthemanna is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to passthemanna For This Useful Post:
gerberadaisy (10-19-2018), MegMarch (10-19-2018)
Old 10-19-2018, 07:04 PM   #11
gerberadaisy
Rose Trellis
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,274
gerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond reputegerberadaisy has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: refusing to do chores

Quote:
Originally Posted by MegMarch View Post
My DD is turning 8 in a few weeks. I've found that she responds best to written lists. Ideally she makes them herself. She likes that. But it can be a delay tactic too Anyway, they have to be pretty detailed or she gets overwhelmed. But something like:

Pick up everything by the nightstand side of the bed
Pick up everything on the other side
Pick up everything between the bed and closet
Tidy bed
Laundry to hamper
Shoes in she organizer

And sometimes I ask her to take my phone and take a picture so we can see what she's missed and needs to do again. I have her do that to give her a chance to look with fresh eyes before I give my feedback.

As for stuff like you posted, missing activities happens here, unless it ends up punishing her friends. So a playdate we won't miss, but we would miss a party where she'd be less missed. And if I have to do a lot of the work, I will usually put her stuff in my closet for a few months. I let her know that if I have to do the work, it goes up because most days I have enough of my own work to do.
He has a checklist & I am in the process of making it more detailed but haven't had the time to type it all up. If I allowed him to make the list each time, it would absolutely be a stall tactic.

I wouldn't punish a friend or other people either but I have had this problem on the day of a birthday party where he ended up going late. I would have him miss that because birthday girl had other friends & family there but fortunately he decided he needed to get it done & got there late. This weekend we're cleaning up his playroom & hopefully labeling bins so he can't say "I don't know where this goes". So really today, I just needed his toys IN the play area & didn't care so much about them being put away - as long as I wasn't tripping over them. He did pick a few things out of my dust pile because I told him I wasn't waiting any longer to do MY chores. He was not happy but my not so sympathetic response was "next time you'll pick them up the first time I tell you."

---------- Post added at 09:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamacat View Post
He is still very young. And that can mean not mature enough for our expectations sometimes or how we would like them to be at a certain age. Even at age 10ish I remember having to be very specific with my kids about clean up projects unless it was more broad like vacuum the carpet in the family room or feed the dog his scoop of fod. Is he the kind of processor like Meg described that would do better with a list?glad he got it done in time.
Yep, we figured out a while back that he likes a checklist so made one. I know I have to update it to make some things more specific. I was right there telling him what to do next but stopped when he began playing. More than two hours later, he finished it without my help, input, or reminder because I think he knew I was serious about missing the party. I did remind him of one or two things he needed to do but he seemed to "remember" what he needed to do at the last minute.

---------- Post added at 10:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katigre View Post
I do "if then" for chores, they can't move on to the next fun thing until the chore is done. We start this when they're 3-4, and it is very effective in making the boundary that chores aren't optional. Now all my kids have become pretty good at getting their work done, bc they don't want to miss doing the fun thing that comes next.
We do that as well. For something that is going to happen shortly after he is done, it usually works with a bit of a fight but usually quicker. This was sort of my "if then" scenario but I guess the reward was too far away to motivate him until it was closer.

What do you do in an "if then" scenario when they still don't want to move? Do you allow them to play? watch TV? etc. I'm sure it can depend on what is required to be done but I can see him just screaming what a mean mommy I am - which is OK but obviously not ideal.
gerberadaisy is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to gerberadaisy For This Useful Post:
MegMarch (10-19-2018)
Old 10-19-2018, 07:24 PM   #12
Katigre
Rose Garden
 
Why thank you, it is naturally blue...
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 20,699
Katigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond reputeKatigre has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: refusing to do chores

If they're refusing to clean, then they would lose a privilege like screen time.
__________________
DS (12) DD (9.5) DS (6) DD (4)
Married to my for 15 years

Posting from my phone, pardon the auto correct typos
Katigre is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Katigre For This Useful Post:
gerberadaisy (10-19-2018), MegMarch (10-21-2018), squiddles (10-22-2018)
Old 10-21-2018, 08:15 AM   #13
marbles
Rose Garden
 
Our Family
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Augusta, GA
Posts: 4,596
marbles has a reputation beyond reputemarbles has a reputation beyond reputemarbles has a reputation beyond reputemarbles has a reputation beyond reputemarbles has a reputation beyond reputemarbles has a reputation beyond reputemarbles has a reputation beyond reputemarbles has a reputation beyond reputemarbles has a reputation beyond reputemarbles has a reputation beyond reputemarbles has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: refusing to do chores

We do no screens until responsibilities are done. Also they get allowance on Saturday, but only if they've completed their responsibilities that week. We did have to go through a time when my son didn't connect the later privileges with completing his responsibilities, so I talked a lot about contributing to the family and how we all help each other, and then I took kind of a big step. He was totally fine to just play and skip whatever good things might be coming later, the later was just too far away. So when it was time to do chores, I told him nothing else could be done at chore time. He could sit on the bed or the couch until he was ready to do his chores. It took a week or two honestly of blocking him from leaving or grabbing toys to play with. Sometimes he would sit for an hour just doing nothing. At first too he thought that he could just sit until WE were done with chores and thus skip chore time altogether. But I told him there was no skipping, if he wanted to get up and move on to the next thing, he had to do chores first. I started very small, with tasks I knew he could do, and walked him through each thing until he could do it on his own. I discovered also that a lot of pushback was because he felt like it was too much or overwhelming.
__________________
Mary K
wife to Daniel for 11 years

mom to 8 year old Lucca
and 6 year old "DC" Daniel4
and 3 year old Leia

Almost always posting from my phone.

marbles is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to marbles For This Useful Post:
gerberadaisy (10-22-2018), MamaRachel (10-21-2018), MegMarch (10-21-2018)
Old 10-21-2018, 10:38 AM   #14
mamacat
Rose Garden
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,050
mamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond reputemamacat has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: refusing to do chores

I would redirect rather than stop when he begins playing. That seems to be what he needs the overseeing about right now
__________________
~Catherine~

Mama to 5:

C
W
C
J
S
And Grandma to 3:

A ,K and baby C
mamacat is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to mamacat For This Useful Post:
gerberadaisy (10-22-2018), MegMarch (10-21-2018)
Old 10-21-2018, 12:01 PM   #15
Aerynne
Rose Garden
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 23,332
Aerynne has a reputation beyond reputeAerynne has a reputation beyond reputeAerynne has a reputation beyond reputeAerynne has a reputation beyond reputeAerynne has a reputation beyond reputeAerynne has a reputation beyond reputeAerynne has a reputation beyond reputeAerynne has a reputation beyond reputeAerynne has a reputation beyond reputeAerynne has a reputation beyond reputeAerynne has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: refusing to do chores

Quote:
Originally Posted by MegMarch View Post
Any ideas how to handle it when they don't care or they are not doing stuff for so long that the next thing is food or bed? Mine is often fine with missing out on fun
I don't feed my kids if they're not showing some initiative. So if the next thing is lunch or a snack, they have to be making progress to get fed. If they have a super long list and it is time to eat, I will require something small be done before they will eat. The younger the kid and the more hungry they are, the smaller this chore will be, but I do require progress for them to get fed. The Bible says if you don't work you don't eat, and I tell my kids this.

Another thing I do is that all breaks are taken with a timer. And I will ask them how long they want for a break (though if they say 3 hours that's not an option). So they might do a chore, get 15 minutes to read (but only if they or I set the timer), then do another chore, etc.

As for them not getting it done and then it is bed time, I'll have to think on that. Usually between no progress= no food and them only getting timed breaks, they have their stuff done by bedtime. If they worked pretty hard and got most of it done I don't do consequences for not having it done by bedtime, but for a kid who was just goofing off all day that would definitely require a consequence. We do have a penalty jar of chores and they draw one out for certain failures to work, so I might do that. But for a kid who really isn't getting anything done, a penalty chore wouldn't help- then they just wouldn't do that, either.

I assume you are breaking chores into reasonable chunks, right? (I have kids who can just fold a week's worth of laundry but I have had kids who have to be given the shirts, then the pants, etc).
__________________
Erin

born of water and of the Spirit 4/96
married 5/02
Mama to:
B '04
Nugs '07
Kins born at home '10
Bunny born at home Dec '12

Baby Boo born at home July 2017
Aerynne is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Aerynne For This Useful Post:
gerberadaisy (10-22-2018), MegMarch (10-21-2018)
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:36 AM.


A variety of opinions and ideas are shared on GCM. Personal experiences, suggestions, and tips found here are in no way intended to substitute for medical counsel from a healthcare professional. Always use your own good judgement and seek professional advice when in doubt about a health concern.

Amazon.com affiliate link

Copyright 1997-2017 by Gentle Christian Mothers™
An alternative-minded, evangelical Christian community supporting attachment parenting and natural living.

Do not post content elsewhere.
http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/community/

Some smilies created and copyrighted by Mazeguy.
Some smilies and avatars created and copyrighted by flowermama and children -- do not use elsewhere.

Soli Deo Gloria
To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. ~ Romans 16:27 (KJV)

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.