Created To Be His Help Meet by Debi Pearl *graphic content*

Originally Posted by DebraBaker

Sarah,

You would have a stronger point if Michael Pearl wrote a companion book, "Created to be a Lover as Christ Loves the Church."

But I'm not holding my breath.

db

No, but other people have written a book like this who strongly believe in wifely submission. Plus, it is the woman's role that is most under attack in our feminist, post-Christian society.

I'm not talking about the Pearls'- I stated very clearly my disagreement with their book. What is troubling me is this "traditional roles (which includes wifely submission)= abuse". I also don't think most marriages are abusive and therefore the book, while not good, would not encourage the average woman to stay in an abusive relationship (if that is in fact truly what they're saying- i have yet to see any proof of that offered). The Pearls' are bad enough without adding stuff in.

Actually statistically speaking, marriages that continually harp on the submisison of the wife are much more likely to have spousal abuse.
and, in fact, among evangelicals anyway, the spousal abuse rate is THE SAME as society.

I'd like to see a statistic on that (the more likely to have spousal abuse). I know among very traditional marriages, the happiness rate reported by the couples is signifigantly higher then among more modern marriages.
Evangelicals also have the same divorce and abortion rate as the rest of society. Does that make the teaching against abortion wrong? So do Catholics who don't follow their faith's teachings. The fact that many people are hypocrites doesn't prove a teaching true or false. The sad fact is most Christians live a life that looks no different then the rest of the world.

Sarah,

You would have a stronger point if Michael Pearl wrote a companion book, "Created to be a Lover as Christ Loves the Church."

But I'm not holding my breath.

db

Whereas he doesn't have a book, he does have an audio version of a man's responsibilities in marriage.

What are (according to Michael Pearl) those responsibilities.

Apparently not having mercy on the sick or dying.

db

[Can Dance]

"One study has found that are more likely to experience physical abuse in traditional marriages (where the husband is dominant) than in egalitarian marriages. Evangelicals disagree whether or not the Bible support a traditional or an egalitarian marriage. But it is almost certainly the case that a higher percentage of evangelicals than the general public live in tradtional marriages. So where are wives more likely to be beaten?
One important study found that "less than 3 percent of wives in egalitarian marriages has been beaten by their husband in the previous year. In traditional marriages where the husband was dominant, 10.7 percent of wives had been beaten, a rate more than 300 percent higher than for egalitarian marriages." Another study that included over 20000 couples found similar results. In this study, spousal abuse was 400 percent higher in traditional marriages....Theologically conservatives Christians, according to these studies, commit domestic abuse at least as often as the general public."

Ron Sider, pg 26-27, the Scandal of the Evangelical Conscience.

I can't argue what I don't know. As I haven't listen to the tape, neither has my husband for that matter so I can't ask him.

My personal experience would support that study.

When we were in a legalistic environment and I was told to be completely and solely submissive my husband became downright abusive.

When I put an end to that he has grown into a kind loving husband and father.

We are presently in an egalitarian relationship and I wouldn't have it any other way. I think he's much happier with the true me than the doormat me.

Debra Baker

[Heidi_Suzanne]

I think the Pearls are a blight on the Christian landscape. They are creating bondage for women and children, encouraging sin and excess in men, and making us all the laughingstock of non-Christians who have a chance to observe this mess.

ditto

Actually statistically speaking, marriages that continually harp on the submisison of the wife are much more likely to have spousal abuse.
and, in fact, among evangelicals anyway, the spousal abuse rate is THE SAME as society.

Actually statistically speaking, marriages that continually harp on the submisison of the wife are much more likely to have spousal abuse.
and, in fact, among evangelicals anyway, the spousal abuse rate is THE SAME as society.

fundamentalist christian beliefs are second behind substance abuse in common characteristics of abusers. people like the pearls make it so.

You would have a stronger point if Michael Pearl wrote a companion book, "Created to be a Lover as Christ Loves the Church."

But I'm not holding my breath

mp is a narcissist. holding your breath could be dangerous to your health.

Originally Posted by Titus2:5Catholic

The fact remains on a book written to wives, it is going to sound like that the person who needs to change is the person reading the book. If they didn't think they needed to change, why not read the book?

because it's toxic.

I think you're taking the small portion of marriages that are truly abusive and mirroring them on to the large proportion of marriages that aren't.

statistically among fundamentalists such as those who tend to follow the pearls abuse is not uncommon at all. besides there is a lot more to abuse than outright battering.

For most of us, we can only change our attitudes and our behavior. It's not about thinking that everything is your own fault; it's on focusing what WE need to change and stop looking at the speck in our husband's eye.

sorry, i don't buy it. sometimes we need to look at the speck in the other person's eye and recognize it for what it is. matthew 18 has some wonderful advice for those who are actively being sinned against. leave dp's book in the kindling pile.

I don't see why this dynamic is ok with our children (positive intent and all that) but not ok with our husbands.

there is simply no comparison between angry and controlling men and children. an abusive husband has the ability to literally destroy his wife's life. a child has no such power.

I don't have to wait around for my husband to change, but I don't have to enter into battle with him either.

it's not about a battle. it's about boundaries. it's about not cushioning a usband who is abusive from the natural/logical consequences of his sinful, destructive behavior. it's about truly loving him and refsuing to be a party to his distruction.

I'm not advocating what the Pearls' teach

;

coulda fooled me.

But I am seeing this thread develop a "submission= abusive dynamic" which I'm finding troubling.

only if you view submission as the wife rolling over and playing dead. i'm not against a wife being submissive. i'm not even against a traditional marriage dynamic. i am against the legalistic, bondage producing, scripture twisting the pearls specialize in.

Even the phrase "abusive dynamic" is vague.

considering that it comes in many shapes and sizes it's gotta be vague. if we define abuse as battery where does that leave the wife whose husband only slaps her on occasion?

Keep in mind that any embrace of traditional roles by a man can be seen in today's society as "abusive".

and unfortunately people like the pearls version of the traditional marriage tends to make it even more so.

[hsgbdmama]

Originally Posted by Heidi_Suzanne

statistically among fundamentalists such as those who tend to follow the pearls abuse is not uncommon at all. besides there is a lot more to abuse than outright battering.

This is VERY true -- mental and emotional abuse can be very subtle ... remember the movie "Gaslight" where Ingrid Bergman's character was very subtly mentally abused by her husband (he hid things on her, but made her thought she kept misplacing them) until she thought she was insane?

That is one of the ways mental abuse works -- through small words and actions, the abusing spouse gets the other to believe that they don't know which way is up, and makes them feel incapable of any kind of thought whatsoever without consulting with the abuser.

And using Scripture to back up this type of abuse is simply wrong!

[Heidi_Suzanne]

psychological abuse is in many ways the most destructive and debilitating. a woman can go to others and show them a bruise and get help. if she's been made to question her own sanity or self-worth through repeated mistreatment she may not even be aware of what's happening herself let alone be able to persuade others to see it. most psychological abusers have a public persona that makes it nearly impossible for others to imagine them being abusive. if she's been taught that it's wrong to "give a bad report" about her husband to others or to "grumble" then getting help is next to impossible unless she moves outside of her current circle.

Originally Posted by Jodi B

She surprisingly is not pro-dresses only or only long hair, pointing out there are women who do it for appearances, but are very un-Christian in actions. Also to her credit, she also stresses that if there is abuse (physical, s3xual, abuse of a child), or if the husband is asking the wife to do something illegal in the name of submission, to call the authorities and get out of the situation.

But apparently "get out" does not mean get yourself away from the situation, rather it means to get your husband out of the house and then wait for him to come back. From their website:

But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is willing to seek counseling and repent, then fine and good. If not, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, "What if he doesn’t repent even then?" Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce—always, forever, regardless, without exception.

Seek counseling and forgive and forget? Welcome a man back into your bed who likes to have sex with your daughters??? Uh-uh - I don't think so. That's insanity. I would venture to guess that God considers it a pretty high priority to protect our children from rapists and molestors.

[Mother of Sons]

But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is willing to seek counseling and repent, then fine and good. If not, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, "What if he doesn’t repent even then?" Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce—always, forever, regardless, without exception.

That is just downright evil and women who have done that have lost their children either by the court or if the kids are now adults, because they've been betrayed first by their abuser and then by their mother. SICK.

There is a difference between doing what you can to change yourself and your behaviors that affect your marriage and taking responsibility for HIS behaviors. Women who feel responsible and guilty for things their husband do, will always feel that way because no matter how much she changes, he's not going to if he is abusive. A couple of years ago my inlaws told me that if I would only keep the house cleaner, then my husband wouldn't treat me the way he does. What baloney! I can keep the house spotless and he will act the same because while a messy house might not help his mood, it doesn't cause it. Any book that tells a woman that across the board, if her husband is doing wrong, it is because SHE is doing wrong is garbage.

[milkmommy]

Wonder how this would fit in the Pearls idea of wife sumitting/ honoring their husbands?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165270,00.html

Deanna

[Heidi_Suzanne]

the idea that the wife must somehow be at fault when he's behaving badly is exactly what an abusive husband wants people to think because it keeps the focus off of him and on her. he gets to avoid taking responsibility for his actions and she gets to play scapegoat. how is that honoring to god?

[Heidi_Suzanne]

Welcome a man back into your bed who likes to have sex with your daughters???

the recidivism rate among pedophiles is so high they are considered nearly impossible to reform. add to this the disturbing way that pearlesque teachers virtually prepare young girls to be abuse victoms and you might as well feed them directly to the lions.

Originally Posted by Mother of Sons

There is a difference between doing what you can to change yourself and your behaviors that affect your marriage and taking responsibility for HIS behaviors.

Excellent point, MoS!