Bible study with pro-spanking friends

[twentysixcats]

I'm new here, so still learning the ropes, but I was wondering if you ladies would be willing to help me with something. The idea of GBD is very new to both my husband and I; in fact, it wasn't until recently that I found out that there were Christians who didn't spank their children. (I thought it was a secular/humanist thing - or at least that's what my parents always told me!)

My husband and I are currently in a new parents Bible study and we are reading "Shepherding a Child's Heart". The next chapter is on "the rod". We are still praying and thinking about it, but I am about 90% sure that I don't want to incorporate spanking (hubby is less sure - DD is 18 months old). However, I would love some advice for how to handle the Bible study next week. These are people I love and respect, and it's a safe environment where I think I can bring up concerns and we can all be gracious. However, I really don't want to try and change anyone's mind right now.

How would you respond (gently) to a chapter on spanking? I am terrible at thinking on my feet, so I'm trying to anticipate their questions so I can not look like a naive little girl, LOL. What kinds of things have you come across when gently discussing things with pro-spankers? How did you respond? (Again, not trying to change their minds, just offer another point of view.)

The two I thought of were: well what are you going to do instead, and what happens when you need immediate obedience - if your kid runs in the street.

Thanks in advance!

[DoulaClara]

Ashley, I'm so glad you are here! We actually have a lot of stickied threads at the top of this forum that talk about, among other concepts, Tripp's SACH.

As far as the "What if my child runs into the street" line, well... to me that's always been the pro-spanker's equivalent to the old stoner line, "Can God microwave a burrito so hot, that He Himself cannot eat it?" It's meant to try to outsmart the other person, but still does precious little to put their point forward. Let me look around (briefly! My baby is teething and crabby) and see if I can link some of the really good threads we've had about this, but it boils down to:

- hitting hurts; child doesn't want to be hurt; child runs away from the "known hurt" of spanking (in other words, away from the parent) and likely into the path of an unknown hurt (the car)

and

- if your child, spanked or unspanked, were to run into the road and be hit by a car, how would you feel? Either way, if you spank or not, you will be feeling grief and guilt. If you were a spanker and your kid ran into the road (to get away from you and the spanking to follow, probably), would you stand there and say, "Well see now- I told you! You're road kill now. That'll learn ya..." Nope- the guilt and blame would be on the one who should have been protecting the child in the first place. The adult. And besides... I love to ask the pro-spankers who toss me that old hat if they are in the habit of just setting their small child beside a busy street. There's a reason we have our children close to us in dangerous situations.

---------- Post added at 03:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:36 PM ----------

Here are some awesome links:

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...ening+behavior

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...ening+behavior

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...ening+behavior

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...highlight=SACH

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...highlight=SACH

Hope this helps! It's tricky, when you are first listening to your instincts, but there is so much of a backlash.

[Calee]

The running in the street thing has ALWAYS baffled me, even when I was spanking Grew up and started out really punitive, and I STILL don't believe I would ever have spanked for running in the street. More like running and grabbing up and kissing them all over and telling them how scared I was and scaring the daylights out of them in the process I just don't understand the thought process about spanking in a situation like that.

Anyway. Sorry to slightly de-rail-carry on

[twentysixcats]

I apologize for repeating things that have been discussed before! I will definitely check out the links. There is so much information on here, it's a little overwhelming.

I have been struggling recently because I feel very much alone in some of my parenting choices (bf'ing on demand, bf'ing a toddler), and I'm not really looking forward to being the odd one out again. :-(

[DoulaClara]

Don't apologize at all! I know I still ask questions sometimes, that have been covered 100 times! We've got little ones, and sometimes it's easier than searching through old threads. GCM mamas are happy to link to old threads, and usually to re-hash issues!

It really *is* hard to be the odd man out.

[Hermana Linda]

I have some great links on my site (in my siggy.)

[Calee]

Oh I know what you mean about being the odd man out! I am the *only* person I know in real life that doesn't spank, and a lot of people I know think that it is a Biblical mandate (meaning I am sinning because I don't). I hope and pray that you find peace and community HERE, and we can encourage each other when it is hard to be alone

[Hermana Linda]

About the running in the street issue. (The first one is really long, the next 2 are links). The most important post I know about that issue is The Danger Dilemma.

Personally, if you don't want to be - or feel unprepared to be - the salt in the discussion, I think you'd do well to drop out of the "Bible" study (which sounds more like a book club or parenting class than a real Bible study, IMO.) You could email the group leader with your reasons for doing so, including many of those links, if you feel led to that.

I would hate to see you embarrassed or discouraged simply for questioning the group's philosophy. Investigating all options is your responsibility as a parent - to blindly follow ANYONE's advice is a poor choice.

[BarefootBetsy]

Yes, I second reading The Danger Dilemma! Very good one

If you're pretty sure that you don't want to use spanking, but are still not certain about how Biblical not spanking is, please go to the "Dare to Disciple" link in my signature and find my "Spanking and Proverbs" series. It's a three-part series and every single one has links to the other two posts so you can get to part 1 from part 3.

In that series, I go through all the Proverbs "rod" verses and talk about the context of Proverbs and about the different interpretations that could be applied and how those interpretations fit in (or don't) with the rest of the Gospel

[bolt.]

It's probably best to stick with something like, "I disagree with the author on this topic, and I feel that it is my Christian freedom to do so. I think each parent has the right to choose tactics that are in line with their values and temperment."

You don't have to follow up, and you don't have to convince anyone.

A good response if they get question-y might be, "I understand that you are curious about my other methods, and that you are concerned I might be setting myself up for problems -- but I'm beginning to feel outnumbered and uncomfortable. Could you just move on to something else?"

These are statements that people have a hard time saying no to. In a supportive group, the first one gets, "Of course, of course -- we wouldn't want to pressure you!" and the second one gets, "So sorry, you're right, we're just curious. The next thing to discuss is..."

If you are up for reasoned debate in this context, the material here will help you. But if you just want to state your position feel like you are not hiding, even though you differ -- a strategy that backs away from debate, and just says, "I feel I have a right to my opinion, and you to yours. I don't have a problem with our differences."

[twentysixcats]

To clarify... It's not actually a Bible study but a home fellowship group; I tend to just say Bible study because people understand that term better. The people in my group are very gracious. We chose the book together as a group - I had it recommended to me and didn't know anything about it. I actually brought up the spanking concerns briefly on the first day we met, and their response was kind and non-judgmental.

I think I like what Pam said:

Originally Posted by bolt.

If you are up for reasoned debate in this context, the material here will help you. But if you just want to state your position feel like you are not hiding, even though you differ -- a strategy that backs away from debate, and just says, "I feel I have a right to my opinion, and you to yours. I don't have a problem with our differences."

I'm feeling encouraged right now. I am not down this road far enough that I couldn't handle listening to people talk about spanking (I will probably do that someday... but not there yet). I do want to throw out an alternative idea, and just wanted to be prepared for possible questions. I think if I am "stumped" I will just be honest... "I don't know. We'll approach that if/when we get to it."

In the meantime... I have so much to read!! Hehe

[Katigre]

Have you read the review on here of SACH?

[NewCovenantMama]

Originally Posted by twentysixcats

The people in my group are very gracious. We chose the book together as a group - I had it recommended to me and didn't know anything about it. I actually brought up the spanking concerns briefly on the first day we met, and their response was kind and non-judgmental.

I think there are 2 types of ppl who read/study SACH. Some are legalistic and controlling. Others read the book through a fairly "positive" parenting filter and don't seem to notice the negative stuff. There is lots of good stuff in there about reaching your child's heart, encouraging their individual gifting, helping them to feel listened to, etc, also about not scolding, and this lulls ppl into a false sense of security about the rest of the advice. There is a lot of scripture twisting, which fools even many people who do know their Bibles well enough to know better .

There's a good article here explaining why it's impossible to take the "rod scriptures" as a command to spank small children. http://parentingfreedom.com/discipline/ If appropriate, you could present it gently as an alternative pov - something along the lines of "What the book teaches seems very extreme, and contradicts some information I've come across about what the Bible actually teaches - what do the rest of you think?"

SACH teaches:

- That spanking is mandatory

- That spanking a child's bottom mysteriously helps to cleanse a child's heart from sin. I can't remember w/o looking how explicitly the book states this, but it is what Tedd Tripp believes. This is actually heresy, since only the blood of Jesus can cleanse from sin.

- That an eight month old baby is capable of looking round "to see if the coast is clear" so that he can deliberately disobey an instruction not to touch something!! Eight month old babies haven't quite figured out yet whether or not Mama has disappeared forever when she is out of sight, so the baby in the book's anecdote was probably looking round to see if Mama still existed! Also at that age, he wouldn't have understood that "no" has permanence, so even if he had understood the instruction at the time, he wouldn't have known that it still applied 5 or even 2 minutes later. And the fact that Mama had just deliberately shown him the forbidden bookcase meant that firstly it was interesting to him, and secondly it may have reminded him of Mama, making him instinctively feel more secure.

- That special needs children should be spanked "in faith", even if they don't appear to understand why. The story of the non-verbal child who suddenly spoke after a spanking appals me, because it's been known for non-verbal children suddenly to speak after a traumatic shock - the adrenaline triggered something in their brain. The child's actual comment reveals only that he knew what was supposed to come next in Tripp's prescriptive spanking routine, not that he understood why.

- That if you tell your child to put his crayons away and get ready for bed, and he wants to request permission to finish the bit he's on, he has to physically start to pack away to demonstrate obedience before asking for extra time - in other words if he gets the extra time, he has to unpack his crayons again!! This seems rather legalistic to me!

- That children who aren't "sweet enough" after a spanking must be spanked again until they are "sweet".

The spanking routine itself is eerily similar to routines promoted by the sadomasochism and "domestic discipline" (consensual spousal abuse!) movements. Tripp is probably unaware of this, as he is by no means the only person who promotes this sort of routine - how it got into Christian culture is anybody's guess . Spanking children, especially on bare buttocks as Tripp recommends, can mess up a child's sexual development. The modern practice of spanking children on the bottom was popularized by the Victorians, who believed children were incapable of experiencing sexual sensations. It's now known that even tiny children can experience sensations they will later identify as sexual, and there have been cases of children as young as six developing spanking addictions/fetishes.

I believe SACH is a dangerous book which has the potential to mess up children's (and parents') lives, and even if you end up being very low-key about it, you need to go into it forewarned - for your own sake as much as for anyone else's, since Tripp is so persuasive that it's difficult to read the book without taking on board the mindset unless you are well-prepared.

HTH

Emma

PS as a cat lover I'm curious about your username...we only have 5 cats !!

[Can'tTurnLeft]

Originally Posted by KatieMae

Personally, if you don't want to be - or feel unprepared to be - the salt in the discussion, I think you'd do well to drop out of the "Bible" study (which sounds more like a book club or parenting class than a real Bible study, IMO.) You could email the group leader with your reasons for doing so, including many of those links, if you feel led to that.

I am part of a wonderful small group that is currently doing a SACH study and I'm sitting the study out. I am very prepared to be the salt in the discussion, but I personally lack the emotional energy right now due to some life events of the past six months. It is okay to say you just aren't up to the discussion, even if the group is very gentle and loving and caring. I would also suggest avoiding the study if you aren't grounded in grace based discipline. I'm grounded in it, I know why I believe it from a scriptural standpoint, and I am very good at filtering out bad things. But right now I lack the energy to do it. If you aren't well grounded it isn't wise to engage it. I wouldn't send a soldier who has just gotten to boot camp to plan battle.