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Unprepared for Parenting (Ezzos, Pearls, Etc.) *Public* Support and information for those affected by the Ezzos, the Pearls, and other punitive and adversarial methods of child-rearing.
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Old 02-19-2011, 09:27 AM   #121
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

MommyInTraining - You've had quite the time of it! Wow. I second KatieKind, please don't feel like God is punishing you. I totally understand the struggle with wondering if you should've chosen something that would be easier, I've struggled with that myself since my 5 short married years have been insane. But I'm learning that the struggles are part of the beauty of it and when I feel like things are too tough I go listen to this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gs3fg_WsEg

......

The discussion about VF affiliates has been fascinating to me. After coming out of the crazy I lean toward not being part of anyone who is connected at least by having a VF promoted person as a speaker. So, for example, since True Woman has Voddie Baucham speaking at their conferences I tend to throw out everything else they do. Or since John Piper says MANY things that are way too close to extreme patriarchy for my comfort I don't buy his books or actively seek to learn from him in other areas, even though in other areas he's not that bad. (And that's difficult to do here in Minneapolis, let me tell you! Everyone LOVES him.)

That obviously stems from my hurt and isn't exactly logical, because those I've mentioned aren't considered extreme in the mainstream christian community. There isn't any "good" reason to toss out their teachings.

But I can't help but wonder what would happen if the Christian community took a stronger, more extreme stance against patriarchy and dominionism? I can't help but wonder if everyone avoided christian teachers who even sort of had a whiff of patriarchy on them what would happen in christian leadership? If those who really didn't believe in patriarchy refused to have anything to do with those leaders who associated with them?

I'm not talking about avoiding friends and family who hold to these teachings (although sometimes you might have to) but not supporting anyone who teaches or is viewed as a spiritual authority unless they strongly distance themselves from VF and it's associated bad doctrines?

Maybe it's not good to toss the baby out with the bathwater. But when I can still get plenty of good teaching from places that have NOTHING to do with VF I am going to support those people. I will do everything I can to show others how the doctrines of VF are slowly seeping into mainstream teachings.
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Old 02-19-2011, 12:37 PM   #122
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by purple_kangaroo View Post
How are you defining Patriarchal? BJU strongly encourages even single women to become missionaries, doctors, teachers, etc. etc. and be out in the world being independent and doing great things (just not being pastors). They have stories and testimonies in their chapels and classes about how young people defied their parents to follow what they believed God was leading them to do in serving the Lord. They teach that obeying God rather than man may sometimes even, in some circumstances, mean disobeying (although not dishonoring) parents. Even in cases where the parents are not directly ordering children to sin, but are just not supporting what the young person feels God is leading them to do.

BJU is Southern, fundamentalist, and authoritarian in many ways, but I went to school there and I just do not see how they fit the Patriarchal label, since they do not teach that the father is the ultimate authority overriding all pastoral authority or God's direct leading, or that the family unit and parental authority overrides all other considerations, especially once young people reach adulthood. They do teach children to honor their parents, but not to the exclusion/overriding of their following their own convictions and hearing from God for themselves, especially as adults.
They are absolutely Patriarchal They make sure that women don't step out of the acceptable within their group roles. In fact, as a missionary, a woman can teach men--just not white American men Women, in the roles they are allowed to take, are *always* subordinate to men. I think it's important to not confuse UBER Patriarchal with Patriarchal. Though I will say that without ANY limitations put on Patriarchal ideas in Scripture (I believe because Patriarchall ideas are not actually being put forth by God) the UBER Patriarchal ideas can't be argued against if you accept the Patriarchal ideas at all.
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Old 02-19-2011, 01:23 PM   #123
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Just catching up on this thread. to Hobby Lobby. At least Michael's carries much of the same stuff, and is closer to me. And it took me a few pages of back-reading to figure out that SAHD meant daughter, not dad. That one had me I thought I grew up around conservative Christians, but I guess they weren't.

My dad is obnoxiously conservative (but not Christian), and he was very happy to support my education. Not that he expects his daughters to work for a living , but being smart is in his book.
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Old 02-19-2011, 02:31 PM   #124
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

I grew up around that mentality because I was home schooled, and while my folks are very conservative both politically and in their world view, they saw the lies for what they are. I have to be honest and say that I am really amazed that they are still around. I really did think that time would take care of them and they would learn. Clearly I was wrong. If HSLDA is the Home School Legal Defense Association, then there was once a very great and legitimate need for them. My parents started back in the 80's and there was very real threat where we were at that time that if you were caught, your children would be taken from you and placed into foster care. If you joined them for a fairly nominal fee, they would come and defend you and get your kids back into your custody. They are also the ones that got many of the laws changed or overturned so that people are able to home school in peace.
I tend to think that the reason VF and others were able to take hold is they did provide a very valuable service at one point and that increased their power. The other thing is that they have going for them is- to paraphrase MamaKristen- family porn. They have this incredible idealistic and happy picture that is not possible to achieve. Follow them and your family will always be safe and sound and you will always be in the center of God's blessings.
M2MR, I am very conservative in my world view and we are fairly traditional in our family life. But what these people are promoting is not healthy. In a word it is dangerous. It has just enough truth to suck you in and by the time you see what has happened it is too late. I don't want you to feel unsafe here, far from it. But I do really want you to test the spirits. Do those things really line up with scripture? Do you have an uneasy and niggling feeling that something is wrong somehow? Again, I don't want you to feel attacked or unsafe. Quite the opposite. But there is a reason that VF and all the rest are so soundly rejected here and maybe it is worth a second prayerful look.
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Old 02-19-2011, 02:41 PM   #125
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

I had wondered about he HSLDA. Are they affiliated?
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Old 02-19-2011, 02:49 PM   #126
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodlebug's Mommy View Post
I had wondered about he HSLDA. Are they affiliated?
Don't know. After I finished school, I didn't keep track of any of it. And to be honest, my parents really did limit the exposure my brothers and I had to that particular theology as much as possible. My mom's philosophy was there is no reason to learn lies since they change. Just memorize the truth and you'll be fine.
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Old 02-19-2011, 02:56 PM   #127
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Yes but M, you were allowed to be smart and pursue your education. Jasmine Baucham is easily one of the smartest young women I have seen in this entire movement. She could easily hold a PhD, and when you read her writings I belive she would love to pursue her education. She is not permitted to do so because she is female, and no other reason whatsoever.
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Old 02-19-2011, 03:03 PM   #128
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Does anyone have a quote where MP speaks against VF?
They may not be officially linked, but surely they agree on the whole father-as-center-of-the-universe?
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Old 02-19-2011, 03:06 PM   #129
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

MP being Michael Pearl? I know at the hs conference I went too I was pretty sure that VF was selling MP's book.
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Old 02-19-2011, 03:17 PM   #130
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

.

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Old 02-19-2011, 03:20 PM   #131
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

I do, I'll be right back.

---------- Post added at 02:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:17 PM ----------

Here is one which doesn't need to be broken.
http://whitewashedfeminist.wordpress...te-the-pearls/
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Old 02-19-2011, 03:29 PM   #132
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Can someone explain how Nancy Campbell is associated with VF? I know she believes contraception is wrong, prefers the KJV, and believes mothers should be SAHMs or WAHMs. Is there something else?
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Old 02-19-2011, 04:14 PM   #133
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Nancy Campbell runs Above Rubies, right?

---------- Post added at 03:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:11 PM ----------

Well, she sells their books.

---------- Post added at 03:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------

Make that, they publish her books.
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Old 02-19-2011, 05:38 PM   #134
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by purple_kangaroo View Post
I think the difficulty we may be having in communication is that you might be referring to patriarchy in a more general sense as a mindset that sees men as having some level of headship over women (at least in the specific settings of church/spiritual leadership and marriage), while I am referring to The Patriarchy Movement as a certain extreme subset of the more general mindset many might refer to as patriarchy--with specific doctrinal teachings requiring more absolute authority and total submission tied with things like no birth control, women not having jobs outside the home or operating as equals with men in any sphere, children being seen as belonging to and an extension of their father, etc.

BJU would probably fit into the former, wider definition, but not the latter more specific/narrower definition. That's why I do not believe they should be included in a list of people that support Vision Forum or agree with their beliefs.
Just requoting this because I'm not sure if it got lost in the shuffle or not.
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Old 02-19-2011, 05:43 PM   #135
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by purple_kangaroo View Post
Just requoting this because I'm not sure if it got lost in the shuffle or not.
Who were you talking to? I know it's not me because I've never mentioned BJU in this thread, to my knowledge. However, I'd be willing to bet that if you addressed your post to someone specific, you'd probably be more likely to get an answer. This thread has been all over the place, after all!

I'm pretty sure that you were addressing the post about the QF book author to me though. I'm keeping him on the list with his connection listed that he wrote that book. That's the only connection, to my knowledge, as well, but it's a very influential book in the movement which is why I listed him WITH that as his only connection. I'll specify that it's his only connection and that the book was not published by VF or anything.
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