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Unprepared for Parenting (Ezzos, Pearls, Etc.) *Public* Support and information for those affected by the Ezzos, the Pearls, and other punitive and adversarial methods of child-rearing.
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23. No posts harshly dissecting parenting moments of others since we desire to humbly cultivate a heart attitude of grace and not judgment towards other mamas. We all struggle at times as parents and have much to learn, and GCM's focus is to provide tools and information for each of us to parent more effectively. Posts voicing some frustration regarding choices made by others can be okay, but it needs to be within the overall context of seeking understanding or ideas for better responses in the future.

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Old 02-12-2011, 12:58 PM   #16
thrillofhope
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

The Botkin situation makes me kind of sad. I actually watched their movie before I found gcm and learned about mutual submission and what being a woman of God actually means. Anywho, those two girls are beautiful, intelligent, talented, etc., and their dad really just creeps me out.

I don't have a problem with daughters staying home if that's what they want. God forbid my child should ever live in a dorm! But I also want them to have their own life, away from me. To me that is healthy.
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Old 02-12-2011, 12:58 PM   #17
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarefootBetsy View Post
Well, theoretically they should be married by then, but if not, I would imagine the torch of patriarchy would be passed down to one of their brothers and they would then have to help HIM with HIS vision

Women, according this mindset, don't have visions... they're supposed to sit at home, keep house, take care of the children, and look pretty while helping the menfolk with their amazing ideas and astounding visions!
Yup, the torch DOES get passed on to a brother. And then, if the girl ever did get married, I assume he would give her away at the wedding instead of the Father - or sorry, I didn't mean wedding, I meant "transfer of authority."

And whoever said that home business were the ideal were right - that is the Biblical way to do thing, doncha know?
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Old 02-12-2011, 01:19 PM   #18
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodlebug's Mommy View Post
The Botkin situation makes me kind of sad. I actually watched their movie before I found gcm and learned about mutual submission and what being a woman of God actually means. Anywho, those two girls are beautiful, intelligent, talented, etc., and their dad really just creeps me out.
I've read the Botkin sisters' blog - they are amazingly talented, and paint such a compelling picture of the patriocentric life - I can see the appeal. The ideal seems to be that, as men are intrinsically stronger than women, a woman under male authority can still be as strong as she is capable of being - which is pretty darn strong, looking at the Botkin sisters and some of their email correspondents - without having to worry about overshadowing her male authority. They paint a picture of using one's gifts to their fullest - no doormats or wilting violets there! - but in service to those closest to them, instead of a random boss. With a male leader who is confident in his leadership and so has no need to bring others down in a petty attempt to boost himself up - but instead raises up those around him. While I can't get over the theoretical framework, the vision of the practical outworking presented *does* sound wonderful .

Shame it doesn't work out like that in practice . But inevitable, given human nature - power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely .
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Old 02-12-2011, 01:51 PM   #19
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

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Old 02-12-2011, 04:36 PM   #20
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by forty-two View Post
I think their ideal *is* that all fathers are self-employed .
According to VF then, we're toast. Not only is my DH employed outside the home, but he's a public school teacher, and at least one of his boys has voiced a desire to follow in his footsteps.
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Old 02-12-2011, 04:47 PM   #21
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodlebug's Mommy View Post
I don't have a problem with daughters staying home if that's what they want. God forbid my child should ever live in a dorm! But I also want them to have their own life, away from me. To me that is healthy.
O/T, see bolded. Some of the best years of my life were lived in a dorm. They were also at a point where my faith was probably at its strongest. Dorms do not have to be evil incarnate.
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Old 02-12-2011, 06:49 PM   #22
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eowyn View Post
According to VF then, we're toast. Not only is my DH employed outside the home, but he's a public school teacher, and at least one of his boys has voiced a desire to follow in his footsteps.
You all fail in far bigger ways than Brandons job. I believe you wear pants.
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Old 02-13-2011, 08:44 PM   #23
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

One of the things that I find really "off" about the Botkins is, where in the Bible is it written: "Let the teenaged/twenty-something daughters tell the rest of the women on earth how to live our lives"??
And yet they do!!
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Old 02-15-2011, 12:03 PM   #24
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by momma2girls View Post
Okay so I have heard talk of Vision Forum lately and was wondering if someone could tell me about it. What they believe? Are they icky? Are they good? Are they both? I want to be informed so I know at least some to carry on a conversation.
They are major leaders in the patriarchal movement.

Read the page on their website on "Beautiful Girlhood" and you will see many statements along the line of,
Quote:
"For the daughter who has embraced the beauty of Christian girlhood, the richest friendships begin within her family, where she learns to love and honor, and first learns the joy of belonging to another."
and
Quote:
"One of the defining qualities of beautiful girlhood is a love for home and hospitality. A young girl watches her mother and looks forward to the day when she, too, will have a family. While other girls are driven by wanderlust, the hospitable girl finds true contentment at home."
In the doctrinal statement on their website (visionforum.org) titled "The Tenets of Biblical Patriarchy," they make it pretty clear that they elevate things like homeschooling and not allowing your children to go to age-segregated Sunday School to the level of spiritual absolutes (i.e. going beyond a recommendation to the level of calling/implying it is a sin not to do as they suggest).

Quote:
Christians should not send their children to public schools since education is not a God-ordained function of civil government and since these schools are sub-Christian at best and anti-Christian at worst.
VF is also dominionist/reconstructionist, if that bothers you:

Quote:
While men are called to public spheres of dominion beyond the home, their dominion begins within the home
They are Quiver-full (believing it's a sin to try to limit or control the number of children God gives).

Quote:
God’s command to “be fruitful and multiply” still applies to married couples, and He “seeks godly offspring.” He is sovereign over the opening and closing of the womb. Children are a gift of God and it is a blessing to have many of them, if He so ordains. Christian parents are bound to look to Scripture as their authoritative guide concerning issues of procreation. They should welcome with thanksgiving the children God gives them.
Quote:
[T]he acceptance of birth control in the Protestant community is a historically novel accommodation to modernist theology, utterly without biblical warrant, and fated to bring the Church into judgment for its rejection of the sovereign God’s biblically revealed vision for bringing forth godly seed in great abundance.
www. visionforum.com/news/blogs/doug/2004/02/662/


Here's a blog talking a bit about Vision Forum:

http://www.yehaveheard.com/tag/vision-forum/
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:37 PM   #25
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

I didn't know 'Beautiful Girlhood' was from Vision Forum!! I've read that book growing up and I thought it was wonderful and still do! I think in most things there is some truth to everything. This book may just be the 'kernel' of good within the whole sphere of VF thinking. I havent read too many other things from them. I might explore it in greater detail for myself before jumping to any conclusions (good or bad). I can tell from all the posts that there are definitely aspects to VF that I also disagree with, but maybe there is some good too.
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:59 PM   #26
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

t

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Old 02-15-2011, 02:16 PM   #27
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

I never got that impression when I read it growing up. The book merely encouraged the desires I already had - to be a modest, godly housewife and mother. I guess I dismissed the negative aspects of the book subconciously. Now that I am a wife/mother, I should pull the book out again (if I can find it up in the attic or among the storage boxes). Maybe I'll see it differently, maybe not.
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Old 02-15-2011, 02:22 PM   #28
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

n

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Old 02-15-2011, 02:55 PM   #29
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama2MeadowRose View Post
I didn't know 'Beautiful Girlhood' was from Vision Forum!! I've read that book growing up and I thought it was wonderful and still do! I think in most things there is some truth to everything. This book may just be the 'kernel' of good within the whole sphere of VF thinking. I havent read too many other things from them. I might explore it in greater detail for myself before jumping to any conclusions (good or bad). I can tell from all the posts that there are definitely aspects to VF that I also disagree with, but maybe there is some good too.
Please be AWARE!!! The very fact that there is some good and some beauty intermingled with this poisonous teaching is the problem. It is attractive. Some of it is appealing.
In my opinion it is not worth sifting through the refuse to find a few nuggets of truth, when the truth is to be had from much purer sources.
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Old 02-15-2011, 03:52 PM   #30
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by newday View Post
Please be AWARE!!! The very fact that there is some good and some beauty intermingled with this poisonous teaching is the problem. It is attractive. Some of it is appealing.
In my opinion it is not worth sifting through the refuse to find a few nuggets of truth, when the truth is to be had from much purer sources.
The same exact same thing can be said of any the materials written by Ezzo.
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