What I don't understand...

[Amahoro]

We sing all these beautiful songs at Church about God's unfailing love for us, grace for us, delight in us, etc etc etc - and yet it doesn't get extended to our precious children that he has entrusted to us?



I was just thinking this today, as I took note of the lyrics I was singing (Amazing Grace, He Knows My Name, etc). Churches all over the world sing these songs every Sunday with such passion and emotion about how our God loves us and extends mercy and grace to us and delights in us - but then at the same time 'Christian' parenting teaching often promoted by these same Churches is so different.

It just makes me sad...

[6boysmom]

I often think the same thing too- What really saddens me is that several years ago, I heard a pastor preach about how he used to deal with his "disobedient children" during church services. He talked about how he had to "train" himself to "stay in the spirit" during songs while spanking his children at the same time. He didn't believe in taking them out of the service. He even demonstrated how he would sing and raise one hand in worship and reach down and smack his kids with the other. Makes me wonder what he was singing and what his kids thought.

In total contrast, last week we were at an evening church service and we were singing, "Mighty to Save" by Laura Story. It starts, "Everyone needs compassion, the kindness of a Savior, let mercy fall on me. . ." My kids were all sitting by me and holding my hands. It was pure joy! Then we all went up to take communion together and I remember thinking how blessed I was to have these wonderful boys! They are so sweet and kind and loving! It makes me shudder to think what God would think if I reached down and started hurting them in any way

Jesus said, "Let the children come to me and do not hinder them."
AMEN!

[Emerald Orchid]

It's really a paradox.

[MercyInDisguise]

Originally Posted by 6boysmom

He even demonstrated how he would sing and raise one hand in worship and reach down and smack his kids with the other.

[6boysmom]

To clarify my quote about the pastor "demonstrating". His kids were actually grown and gone. He was just gesturing - no actual child was involved. Probably a good thing for him and me- He already didn't like me because I confronted him on a booklet he was handing out (I told him it was promoting child abuse). As a side note: The pastor was upset because his grown children were using Ezzo stuff and he felt that was "unbiblical" (not enough beating involved- he believed every single act of disobedience was worthy of the rod).

[Hermana Linda]

I have had the same quandary when my pastor says things like, "We don't obey God out of fear, we obey God out of love. " and I'm thinking, "Then why does he believe in spanking? "

[LilacPhoenix]

Our pastor teaches grace, grace, grace... to everyone but children

[rjy9343]

I think that many of these people believe that God spanks us when he allows or causes things to happen. One guest pastor gave a sermon on biblical families. In it he justified spanking children by citing his cancer as spanking from God. He also gave some other examples, but that is the only one I clearly remember.

[marbles]

Originally Posted by rjy9343

I think that many of these people believe that God spanks us when he allows or causes things to happen. One guest pastor gave a sermon on biblical families. In it he justified spanking children by citing his cancer as spanking from God. He also gave some other examples, but that is the only one I clearly remember.

I can sort of understand this reasoning. However, my response to this is that we are not God! He can do really big things, he can plan events that span thousands of years. He can look inside our hearts and know what we are really wanting/thinking and he can know 100% how we will respond to his correction. I can't know how my children will respond in their hearts to the correction I give them so I will be extremely careful to deal gently and lovingly with them. Yes, I am a representative of God to my children and I should look to him to determine my relationship with them, but I cannot act like god with them. Those are two very different things.

[rjy9343]

Originally Posted by marbles

I can sort of understand this reasoning. However, my response to this is that we are not God! He can do really big things, he can plan events that span thousands of years. He can look inside our hearts and know what we are really wanting/thinking and he can know 100% how we will respond to his correction. I can't know how my children will respond in their hearts to the correction I give them so I will be extremely careful to deal gently and lovingly with them. Yes, I am a representative of God to my children and I should look to him to determine my relationship with them, but I cannot act like god with them. Those are two very different things.

Very well said. And congratulations on your new baby. I did not realize he was here.

[bliss]

Originally Posted by rjy9343

I think that many of these people believe that God spanks us when he allows or causes things to happen. One guest pastor gave a sermon on biblical families. In it he justified spanking children by citing his cancer as spanking from God. He also gave some other examples, but that is the only one I clearly remember.

I had a similar conversation years ago with a woman who honestly believed that her husband dying of brain cancer was a punishment for her from God . My logical brain told me to bean-dip her, my emotional brain opened my mouth and said, "I'm really sorry you see God that way." and walked away.

[Persinette]

I am lucky to have never experienced this, being raised Catholic which (at least in the case of my church) had a very graced-based, loving attitude toward children, later trying out several mainline Protestant denominations (same deal), and then finally ending up a Quaker (we are VERY anti corporal punishment, and my local meeting has hosted and/or taken part in events for "Spank Out Day.")
I think if I ever heard a minister or priest preach in favor of corporal punishment, I would walk right out and never come back. I hope I'm not out of line asking this (or asking in the wrong forum), but I am curious as to what would make someone stay in a church where spanking is encouraged by the minister or priest, when there are so many Christian churches/denominations out there that do not support corporal punishment?
I realize that a lot of this wondering is based on my own experience (I literally, can not imagine being in a situation where a minister or priest says something that is pro-spanking), and imagine that this influences my feelings on this. Perhaps if I'd grown up with this kind of talk I might feel differently?
Just wanted to clarify that no judgement is meant here, just genuine curiosity

[Hermana Linda]

I have not found a church where the pastor was willing to condemn spanking. I think that would be very rare in my denomination.

Today I was encouraged to hear my pastor scoff at the idea of of spanking a baby for crying, (saying that you expect that kind of communication from babies but not from adults) and say how we expect a 5 yr old to think only about himself (but that an adult should not do that.)

[beansmama]

Originally Posted by Persinette

but I am curious as to what would make someone stay in a church where spanking is encouraged by the minister or priest, when there are so many Christian churches/denominations out there that do not support corporal punishment?

There are so many? Which ones?

[Persinette]

Originally Posted by Hermana Linda

I have not found a church where the pastor was willing to condemn spanking. I think that would be very rare in my denomination.

Today I was encouraged to hear my pastor scoff at the idea of of spanking a baby for crying, (saying that you expect that kind of communication from babies but not from adults) and say how we expect a 5 yr old to think only about himself (but that an adult should not do that.)

Thank you for responding I didn't really think of denominational or even regional boundaries but of course that makes sense! This is a slightly weird example, but I'm thinking now, of how I used to be very critical of people that shopped at Walmart and couldn't understand why they didn't just go somewhere else...until I moved to small town where there was pretty much nothing but a Wal-Mart, and ultimately, I was quite humbled (not to say a church is like a Wal-Mart of course, just that it's easy to say "why not go somewhere else?" when it's easy for me to do that, but life is not always that cut and dry!) I would imagine that if I felt very spiritually uplifted and at home in a particular religious group that I would probably not want to leave over one issue.

Also, way off topic for the most part, but I love your blog, and know many people from various local children's rights and peaceful parenting groups that I am a part of that have found it to be an invaluable resource (me included!)

Originally Posted by beansmama

There are so many? Which ones?

Well, to be Honest, other than Quakers, I haven't really researched anyone's official stance on corporeal punishment, but in my own personal experience, it has been either never mentioned, or explicitly condemned by any church that I've attended. This could very much have to do with where I've lived and attended church (Midwest, primarily, but always in big cities) From my own personal experience:

Catholic (Our priests discouraged growing up, though I guess I did hear rumors of a certain nun at the school, which I did not attend, that still used a ruler )
Non-denominational Emergantesque church (Never mentioned)
Christian Reformed Church (Discouraged by leaders and gentle parenting meetings were hosted)
Unity Church (Very Strongly Discouraged)
United Church of Christ (never mentioned)
Episcopalian (Discouraged)
Lutheran, ELCA (Never mentioned)
Quaker Meeting (Extremely discouraged)

Again, I can't speak for the individual denominations specifically, just the churches I've attended. (Also, I've only included churches I'd attended semi-regularly, like at least 2 months, also, holy cow! I've attended a lot of different churches!) It's been my understanding as well, that mainline denominations tend more toward discouraging or remaining neutral on corporal punishment, and that churches that tend toward more evangelical and/or independent are more likely to speak in favor of it, though even in my experience with more conservative (for lack of a better term) churches (reformed and non-denom) I've never personally come across anything pro-spanking...but maybe I'm just lucky? Though that's not to say I have never met Christians that are pro-spanking, I know and am related to many, I just have never attended the same churches they do, and I really know if their stance comes from their place or worship, or somewhere else.

Someday, when I have more time, I would love to research beliefs about corporeal punishment in different Christian denominations/sects...that could be really interesting/helpful. Has anyone around here put together any sort of a list before?