Need help dealing with Church Nursery

[VaticanCameos]

The other babies may have learned helplessness, or have no expectation that their parents will respond to their needs during certain times. They eventually give up trying. Super convenient. Personally, i would NEVER leave my kid with people with that attitude even if i could trust them to page me (which you obviously can't.) My church has a lot of Ezzo parents as does my HS co-op and for that reason i simply keep my child with me. I will. not. have. another parent disciplining my child ever, much less for something that is neither wrong nor requiring discipline. Also, i would call CAS about the father striking the baby with an object.

[Soliloquy]

Overall, I admit, within me there's a deep fear that if I were to not spank my kids, they will just end up in rebellion, or not saved, or just totally messed up because of my 'disobedience to scripture.'

Take some time to think about what I put in bold.

If I don't spank, my kids might end up unsaved ...

[Beth1231]

I'm just going to touch on a bit of your statements.
You mentioned a few times about your husband being in ministry. I encourage you to really sit with that word and possibly write down what ministry looks like to you. If ministry is what your pastor is doing,are you comfortable with what you see the pastor's wife doing? Do you see qualities in them that you admire and aspire to be like? Are they full of grace and willing to get on the floor and be wrinkled and disheveled to wash someone's feet/hug a homeless person who needs a shower/comfort a child who has just been sick?
These things are telling. Does the pastor hold his head high and often appear suspicious or threatening or even just overly stern? Do the PEOPLE in the church appear at ease,welcoming with sincere,relaxed expressions? Do the CHILDREN in the church laugh freely,smile up at their parents,romp and play when they can with a sense of trust in their environment? Or do they stay close to their parents,perhaps half behind their legs and fearfully check their parents expression after speaking up?
All these things will speak louder than anything you hear from the pulpit. The level of grace and love in the church for each other is reflective of the Ministry of the church and its education programs that will teach your husband to be like them.

[graciousmomma]

Originally Posted by Soliloquy

Take some time to think about what I put in bold.

If I don't spank, my kids might end up unsaved ...

It negates the work of the cross and puts salvation in your hands. And that is not Biblical. Jesus is the only one who has the power to save our children. We would do better to pray for the Holy Spirit to convict and mold and shape our children when necessary, than to think our spanking them alone can save them. I believe that this is a lie straight from the devil. And why wouldn't the devil tell that lie? How many children raised in that mindset have turned away from the church and from God?

I was in a homeschooling mom book study once years ago, and we were reading "Seasons of a Mother's Heart" by Sally Clarkson. A mom who was very much into Michael & Debi Pearl parenting books and ministry was just blown away when Sally Clarkson mentioned how arrogant and prideful some parents are to think that their spanking their kids will save their souls. She was very convicted over her own attitude about that. It hit her like a ton of bricks that this attitude and idea about spanking was blasphemous and wrong.

[MariJo7]

Originally Posted by Soliloquy

If I don't spank, my kids might end up unsaved ...

This is, however, a mantra that is very hard to avoid. It is very hard to move in certain circles without hearing it constantly, and if you are young, inexperienced mother with your first babies, you are very defenseless against this type of rhetoric. People who use it often make it sound so convincing. But it really is a manipulative threat: "if you do not do it like I say, everything will go wrong and it is all your fault." It is a scare tactic. Don't buy it.

My DH believed in spanking when our kids were little. For some reason I do not fully understand, he never spanked or corporally punished DD2 who was our 5th child. Something in that little girl made him respect her more like anybody else on Earth. She is grown up now, and she has the strongest and most balanced walk with the Lord of all of our seven children. She is also the one who loves her dad most passionately and unconditionally. She has not been burdened with the same kind of forgivenes issues as the others.

No one in the New Testament advises parents to spank their children. Not Jesus, not Peter, not Johnt or Paul. Apostle Paul, however, does warn fathers not to be harsh towards their children, because that could make them either fearful of provoke them to anger and bitterness (See Ephesians 6: 4; Colossian 3: 21). Intimidation and provoking anger are both real dangers of inflicting serious damage on a child. It is a huge burdens for a child to live with the burden of either of them, or both. And it does not automatically stop when they grow up. It can be a long battle to get rid of fear and resentment towards your parents. God does help, sure. But some things are so much easier to prevent than to cure.

[daina]

Back to the original topic of the post, do you guys think it's natural or unnatural for babies and toddlers to need to be separated from their parents to worship? Do any of you go to churches that allow the children to stay with their families- and does this lead to a very disrupted service? I know that in the NT there is no mandate for church nurseries (or children's classes, to be honest). It doesn't even give much clue as to what was expected of mother's in the early church.... We don't know where the children and babies were when the NT church was gathering, or when the apostles were preaching. Were the nursing mamas home? I wonder these things, because sometimes at church I feel lonely because I am always in the nursery and only get to hear the preaching 25% of the time. I often rush out after(or during) service bc DS is well beyond needing a nap, and I seem to miss out on a lot of fellowship because of this. I definitely don't regret staying with my son to ensure he feels secure, but I have to admit that I wonder sometimes if I am missing out on spiritual growth because of it.

[rjy9343]

I am an Anglican and we have a nursery if you want to use it, but if you want to bring your baby into the service that's fine. No, it isn't disruptive to our service at all. But it is a lot of work for the parents to keep the child entertained and reasonably happy. My daughter refused the nursery, but my son is fine with it. I do think that part of the reason it isn't disruptive to us is because we don't expect your baby or young child to be quiet and don't mind if your child fusses. We do expect you to take your child out of the chapel until he or she is calm, but we don't mind laughing or if your child asks questions at all.
I don't think that you miss out on spiritual growth by not being in church because of your children's needs. The Great Commission and the least of these jumps to mind. But you do need to be looking for other ways to grow. A bible study or even just a group of Christian moms in different stages of life. I went to a bible study that didn't provide child care and it was great. We talked and read while the kids played. Some stayed at our sides the whole time (I'm looking at you, Ivy) and some ran off to play with each other. One of the things I loved about it was that none of us were in the same denomination so we all had different perspectives to bring into what we were reading. Some of it was something I couldn't agree with for some reason or other, some of it affirmed my beliefs and some of it was ground breaking and new ideas to me. I learned a lot in that group and if I still lived in there I would go back in heartbeat.

[Kiara.I]

Originally Posted by daina

InBack to the original topic of the post, do you guys think it's natural or unnatural for babies and toddlers to need to be separated from their parents to worship?

Unnatural. Absolutely. Some parents find it nice to have a break occasionally, sure, and it can be easier to *emotionally* worship when you're not immediately parenting at the time, but the physical act of caring for a baby or toddler during a church service IS worship, although not how modern North American churches usually define it.

Originally Posted by daina

Do any of you go to churches that allow the children to stay with their families- and does this lead to a very disrupted service?

"Allow"? I can feel my spine stretching and getting taller as I even read the word. Sorry, but the church policy manual is not the boss of me. Seriously, it is not a church body's mandate to make parenting decisions, and requiring children to be separated from their parents is a parenting decision. It is NOT the business of the church to be making that kind of policy! I know some do, but...Ugh. They really, really, REALLY should not be.

I've attended three different denominations. All have provided Sunday School for the kids, during the service.
Denomination #1: Children stayed with parents for the music portion, then there was a children's story at the front, then they went out to Sunday school. Children were welcome to stay in the service if that worked better for the child or the parent (unhappy kid, visitors, whatever.)
Denomination #2: Nursery-age children were dropped off before the service, school-aged children stayed for the music and then left for children's church. Parents could stay in the nursery or class with children, or children could stay in the service. There was no "policy" to enforce.
Denomination #3: Children stay for the music, then children's church, then return for the sharing of the peace, announcements, communion, etc. Very small church. There is no nursery. Quite often children's church is to stay in the service with the parents anyway, or in the back two pews with the teacher, and a clipboard of activity sheets.

Is it disruptive? Sometimes. Rarely. And if it is...SO WHAT? Is our fellowship with other believers supposed to be "perfect" in some way? Or is it okay if it's messy and real? And, while we're on the topic of fellowship with other believers...those children ARE our brothers and sisters in Christ, and should be welcomed to fellowship as part of the body.

So getting back to a church "allowing" children to be there...that, specifically, we have DIRECT teaching from Jesus about. Really, really direct.

Originally Posted by daina

I know that in the NT there is no mandate for church nurseries (or children's classes, to be honest). It doesn't even give much clue as to what was expected of mother's in the early church.... We don't know where the children and babies were when the NT church was gathering, or when the apostles were preaching. Were the nursing mamas home?

It's true that the New Testament doesn't spell it out in ways we can see. But those churches? They were house churches. Literally, IN a house. There were women in those households--wives, mothers, daughters, slaves. "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." Do you suppose he excluded the women? When women were LEADING some of those churches? I kind of doubt it...I expect the mothers were there with babies in-arms, or toddlers playing at their feet or held on their laps.

Originally Posted by daina

I wonder these things, because sometimes at church I feel lonely because I am always in the nursery and only get to hear the preaching 25% of the time. I often rush out after(or during) service bc DS is well beyond needing a nap, and I seem to miss out on a lot of fellowship because of this. I definitely don't regret staying with my son to ensure he feels secure, but I have to admit that I wonder sometimes if I am missing out on spiritual growth because of it.

I'm sorry that you're being shunned. It's very, very hard when a church is so unsupportive. You're missing out on the type of spiritual growth that you are used to, and that is hard. I will say, though, that God uses that time to develop you in other ways: in patience, and in serving, and in dying to self...and maybe even in suffering. Those are all aspects of spiritual growth too.

Maybe you could consider having a mom's group meet at your church on a weekday, or in your home, and share fellowship with other believers that way during this season. WITH the babies. Some of those moms might really find that helpful too, and it would supply some of what your church is failing to give you.

[MariJo7]

I have sometimes visited a Church that had a very nice solution for the kids. The parents could have the kids with them, but if they did not, there was a room for them AND their kids where the parents could stay and play with their toddler, or nurse their baby. The same time they could listen to the sermon through a loudspeaker. The parents often prayed and song along with the worship service while bulding towers of wood blocks or drawing pictures with their toddlers. Sometimes they concentrated more on the children. And sometimes they chatted together. Some parents that knew each other well took turns in watching each other's kids. Some always watched their own kids. It was all very flexible and relaxed. It was perfect. I liked it very much.

There was a special childrens church for pre-schoolers, but for the babies and little toddlers, the parents did the babysitting themselves in that special room.

If I'd ever be in "ministry" again, I believe I would insist to have the nursery in that way. At least, I would insist for the possibility for the parents to do the nursery that way, if some of them would like that too. I'm much older now and not so nice and sweet anymore, so I believe my "insisting" matters now and I would get the job done. But when I was a young mother with a bunch of toddlers and babies, and I really would have liked the nursery that way in our church, my opinions did not matter much .

But who knows, perhaps this is a possibility for you to try.

[Maedchen]

I remember when my last child was a baby (the one that got sick and had to go to the ER just about every time she was in the church nursery) a 2 yr old and a 4 yr old. These were the loneliest years of my life. I felt so isolated at the church we went to. Don't get me wrong, I loved, the church and the preaching. THe pastor was a senior citizen so they had a lot of activities that were for 'no children'. I was so deeply hurt that would need to pay a babysitter or not attend. (My husband was in the Navy so, there was no one I could leave my kids with, and we did not use babysitters for fear of what would happen to them because we were so new to that state.)

I felt like, why do I go at all because I end up being in the nursery or in the foyer anyway, I never hear the lesson or the preaching.

Right before we moved, I had grown a spine and decided, the back row was mine for the taking and my 3 in tow sat with me on that pew. We could slip out if needed.

I have heard of churches that refuse to allow babies in the pews at all..............I would leave and never go back to that type of church.

I now am older and more set in my ways and would keep my children with me. (We were in one church when they were teens and they always had something going on so that the teens were never in church with the parents. I made my kids attend 2 services with us because I think it is super important to worship together.)

There are lots of "I" statements,sorry. This is a subject I feel is extremely sensitive. I equate it to when the disciples were trying to keep the little ones away from Jesus' company and Jesus rebuked the "DISCIPLES" not the "CHILDREN". He told them to allow the little ones to come.

If you do not feel confident to 'lead' a bible study, maybe you could ask one of the older ladies about teaching a group that you host in your home 1 day a week, 2 times a month, or 1 time a month............ It might only be you and 1 other mother and the teacher or it might be larger, but it would be a spiritual outlet. (If no one will teach, you might be able to find some tapes/CDs/DVDs of a bible study that you could gather and listen to with another lady)

[MudPies]

I will not go to a church where children are not allowed in the service.

One of my pastors said it best. He said that one time after a service a person complained about the noises of children. He said that mothers of young children need the service maybe more than anyone, so who are we to deny that of her when it is way easier to ignore normal child noises. He went on to say that children learn best at yhe feet of their parents, and he would also never deny a child the opportunity to learn about Jesus.

[daina]

We have weekly service(Sunday School+Sunday AM, Sunday PM and Wednesday PM). There is beginers church for the kids and teens on Sunday Morning, and Awana on Wednesday nights. On Sunday nights, the kids sit with their parents- but its just the 3 and ups, because the nursery is always open. Nobody complains about the children on Sunday nights, but I feel that babies and their noises are just not very welcome in the service. The most I've been able to sit in the service with DS is about 10, maybe 15 minutes(of the singing, mostly). He just gets so excited and wants to walk around and see people, and I get anxious about every little noise.

I have wished that there was a cry room, but there's not. So I just have to make due. Actually, our church nursery seems like it used to have a one way mirror window which looked into the service, and it has a speaker so you can hear it, but they painted over the window and never turn the speaker on, so its more like a seperate room altogether.

I wouldn't say that I've been shunned. The disconnect in fellowship I feel is, for a large part, on me, because I feel stressed because my baby is stressed. I sometimes just prefer to stay home rather than go to service because at least at home I can watch the service on my TV and still be with my baby. But I feel convicted of this as well, that I need to find more ways to reach out- because older women have reached out to me, and I have not made the effort to follow through or to be vulnerable enough to really share with them my struggles.

Good point that the Acts churches were HOUSE churches. That makes a lot more sense as far as integrated family worship compared to these big buildings and large congregations we have now. I have been in a house church before, and I felt much more connected to the people because you really get to know each other in a more natural setting. Its easier in that setting to share your heart, and get help for things you're struggling with

There is a mom's group where they meet once a month for a playdate, and once a month for a bible study. But I mentioned before that I pulled back this month because they are doing a book about parenting(last year they were doing a bible study about Victory in Jesus). I'm leery that the book is punitively minded, so have opted out for right now.

Originally Posted by Kiara.I

I will say, though, that God uses that time to develop you in other ways: in patience, and in serving, and in dying to self...and maybe even in suffering. Those are all aspects of spiritual growth too.

Thank you for that. Very good point. Will pray for more JOY in being longsuffering with this.

[Maedchen]

Reach out to the older ladies. I always loved listening and learning from them even when I was a teen singing in the choir and playing piano for church.

Sadly many churches ignore the older ladies as much as the young moms feel ignored. (not shunned, just lonely)

In my knitting crochet group, we are from 20 something to 70 something. I love those ladies so dearly and we sit and 'gossip' talk to bringing up a spiritual point to just stopping and praying.

I would love to find a bible study in my area.

[CelticJourney]

Originally Posted by Maedchen

Reach out to the older ladies. I always loved listening and learning from them even when I was a teen singing in the choir and playing piano for church.

Sadly many churches ignore the older ladies as much as the young moms feel ignored. (not shunned, just lonely)

In my knitting crochet group, we are from 20 something to 70 something. I love those ladies so dearly and we sit and 'gossip' talk to bringing up a spiritual point to just stopping and praying.

I would love to find a bible study in my area.

I want something like that Glad to know it exists in the real world.

[daina]

im wondering if this is another topic entirely, worth a new thread, but id like your opinions: would you attend a bible study on a parenting book which encourages spanking? I'm thinking most of you would say "no"... The book itself is not about discipline, but does contain sections and chapters on the subject. Its called "Training Your Child to Turn Out Right"... an old baptist parenting book from the 90's. Would you just forego the study group all together, or go and take the good while leaving the bad?

Being a new mom without much experience, and not being raised in a Christian environment makes it more tempting to go to learn about "biblical parenting". But on the other hand, it goes back to all these things we've been discussing about the fundamental mindset, etc...