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Unprepared for Parenting (Ezzos, Pearls, Etc.) *Public* Support and information for those affected by the Ezzos, the Pearls, and other punitive and adversarial methods of child-rearing.
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:16 PM   #106
BarefootBetsy
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Please let me know if you (general YOU) think I should add or remove anyone else to or from the list. Even later, once this thread is not active any longer, I'd still like to keep a running tally of those affiliated with this group.

The way I figure it, most of the people listed would be proud to be listed as supporting VF They promote VF themselves (most of them) or support them in other ways.
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:17 PM   #107
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Can we take two steps back on the BJU issue for a second - if we could have some sort of university statements or links one way or the other that would be very helpful. Otherwise we are comparing experiences and in this forum, we try really had to stick to what an author or program states/writes, otherwise the spectrum of experiences is far too wide for comparison.
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:19 PM   #108
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Honestly, if you want a s/o on BJU, I may or may not feel up to such a discussion. However, its not really on topic for discussing VF since we both seem to agree that BJU does not promote the SAHD movement and much of what VF stands for.

My only point in diverging into BJU was to point out how strong this new movement is growing, given that BJU does not suscribe to it and is rapidly losing its market for students, and thus its stability and solubility to exist in the future. While some of BJU's struggles related to their history and their own behaviors, as well as their issues on accredidation, there seems no doubt in my mind that others of their current struggles is that they failed to adapt to this new rising movement of SAHDs. Ten years ago, Liberty and BJU were basically on the same playing field and were very similiar in their approach to education. Liberty did two things. They got accredidation and they modified their programs to accomodate the SAHD movement. They are growing and BJU is dying because of those two factors.

The SAHD movement is rapidly growing and integrating many of the Fundamentalist movements that pre-date it, often without those insitutions even grasping what they are accepting into their ideology. The main organization that has been at the forefront of the SAHD movement from the start IS VF. VF has promoted this stuff from the get-go of people saying it sounded weird to its very profitable and powerful presentation in fundamental circles now.
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:21 PM   #109
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
There is a very clear connection between Hobby Lobby and Bill Gothard. There appears to be a personal friendship between Gothard and the Hobby Lobby CEO.
Taking a moment to mourn .... ok, Hancock Fabric it is from now on.
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:40 PM   #110
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by TestifyToLove View Post
I would lump Complementarians with Patriarchy. I wouldn't classify BJU as complementarian either, especially not looking at them historically. I would no sooner consider their stance Complementarian as I would consider them a beacon of racial equality, tbh. In both cases, the words they use and the policies and actions they implement don't line up to reality simply because they want it to.
I'm not saying BJU is perfect by any means, but what I'm saying is that they would vehemently disagree with at least several of the "Tenets of Biblical Patriarchy" laid out by Vision Forum: www. visionforumministries.org/home/about/biblical_patriarchy.aspx

I think the difficulty we may be having in communication is that you might be referring to patriarchy in a more general sense as a mindset that sees men as having some level of headship over women (at least in the specific settings of church and marriage), while I am referring to The Patriarchy Movement as a certain extreme subset of the more general mindset many might refer to as patriarchy--with specific doctrinal teachings requiring more absolute authority and total submission tied with things like no birth control, women not having jobs outside the home or operating as equals with men in any sphere, children being seen as belonging to and an extension of their father, etc.

BJU would probably fit into the former, wider definition, but not the latter more specific/narrower definition. That's why I do not believe they should be included in a list of people that support Vision Forum or agree with their beliefs.

---------- Post added at 09:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 PM ----------

I agree with what someone else said that the list should be limited to those which have clear public statements or ties with VF in a way that is verifiable and factual-based. Not just people or organizations who are conservative or fundamentalist in their leanings.

---------- Post added at 09:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 PM ----------

I'm happy to have all the posts about BJU removed from this thread if it seems best. The only reason I engaged on the topic is that they were listed as associated with VF and the Patriarchy movement, and as stated I believe that is inaccurate.
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:43 PM   #111
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
BJU is Southern, fundamentalist, and authoritarian in many ways
from this statement they are associated.
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:45 PM   #112
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by cobluegirl View Post
from this statement they are associated.
No, they are similar, but the associations that are listed in the previous post, I BELIEVE are documented endorsements or coopertive work.
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:46 PM   #113
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

oh right.
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:51 PM   #114
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Bah, I meant I would NOT link Patriarchy and Complementarian together, oops, typo there.

That said, VF did not establish nor define Patriarchy. Patriarchy is a term much older than this modern movement.
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:51 PM   #115
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by cobluegirl View Post
from this statement they are associated.
I said that, it wasn't an official statement from BJU. And I don't see them being Southern, authoritarian (by which I meant that the school leadership is authoritarian toward students that are enrolled, which is partly a crowd management thing), or fundamentalist as equivalent to being associated with VF specifically any more than the fact that my neighbor uses time-outs means they endorse the Ezzos (both are using punitive parenting, so that must mean they are associated with each other???) .

I consider myself a fundamentalist in the sense that I prefer to focus on the fundamentals of the Christian faith (faith by grace through Christ, etc.) rather than getting distracted by peripheral non-absolutes like when the Rapture might take place. Having that label applied to me in a different context doesn't make me associated with Vision Forum.
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Old 02-18-2011, 03:30 PM   #116
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

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Thanks for starting this thread, Katigre. I am that these people and ideas have such a foothold in the HS community. Our Christian HS associations need to know that we won't support these kinds of speakers
Sorry--I got confused between this thread and a different one. But mama2girls, I do appreciate this thread!
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Old 02-18-2011, 05:35 PM   #117
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarefootBetsy View Post
Please let me know if you (general YOU) think I should add or remove anyone else to or from the list. Even later, once this thread is not active any longer, I'd still like to keep a running tally of those affiliated with this group.

The way I figure it, most of the people listed would be proud to be listed as supporting VF They promote VF themselves (most of them) or support them in other ways.
I still think there are some people on the list which as far as I know do not support or endorse Vision Forum and are not connected with them other than sharing some similarities in isolated areas.

For instance, Charles Provan's only connection seems to be that he wrote a book compiling several centuries' worth of quotes from theologians against birth control, which gets quoted a lot by the Quiverfull/Patriarchal teachers. But I haven't seen any evidence that he is actually connected with Vision Forum in any way other than sharing some of the same convictions about not using birth control. I've never seen any info. connecting him with the VF organization or with any of their other teachings besides the anti-birth-control issue.
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Old 02-18-2011, 05:57 PM   #118
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

I'm thinking that this list needs its own post which should be sticked. I could split it off.

---------- Post added at 04:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:56 PM ----------

I mean, it needs to be the OP of a new thread. Or it will be very hard to ever locate.
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Old 02-18-2011, 06:03 PM   #119
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

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Originally Posted by katiekind View Post
That is SO sad. Your parents missed out. Do you feel they support you in your marriage now?
I haven't had time to be online for a couple of days, so sorry for my delay. Yes, they support my marriage now - because once you're married it can't be undone. I think they are coming around towards my husband, especially my mom, but my dad and he definitely don't have much in common, and my husband doesn't trust him so he doesn't open up with him at all. I've just accepted it the way it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purple_kangaroo View Post
I had several friends who wanted to marry someone different than their parents chose for them, but ultimately decided to submit and marry the person their father picked. In some cases they met their future spouse only a few times before the wedding.

---------- Post added at 07:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:28 PM ----------

I'm sorry your parents responded that way. I know someone else who ended up in that situation too . . . he picked out his own bride and his parents saw that as sin and rebellion, refused to get to know her, attend the wedding, or be involved in their lives afterwards. I don't know if they were involved specifically with VF or not, but they definitely were influenced by patriarchal teachings.
I've heard of people who have done that - chosen to submit to their parents...and I've heard that has worked out well for them. This is going to sound bad, but I honestly almost would have rather done that - because it would have been the easy way out. Saying "no" to my husband would have been easier than saying "yes" because we have been through TONS in our short time together already (pretty extreme financial difficulty, diagnosis of kidney disease in husband, loss of medical insurance that covered it, a couple of out of state moves and losses of jobs, two kids back to back, crazy issues with inlaws, etc)...and I have struggled at times wondering if I made a mistake because we've been through so much, and have wondered if maybe God was either punishing me or if I was just "suffering the consequences of my decision" as my dad told me last year.

??

No one has been able to tell me thus far. But I do love my husband, I desperately love our children...and I have just kind of buried all of that turmoil and moved on. It's too much to think about and I don't want to cry.

I'm definitely not intending to create a spin-off, but wanted to answer the ladies above regarding my earlier post...just haven't been online.

Also, I can definitely second the "girls staying at home" thing. Whew. You should have seen what happened when I moved out. That was the beginning of my "rebellion!"
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Old 02-18-2011, 08:21 PM   #120
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

You've had so much to deal with! Please don't think God is punishing you. Life can be hard.
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